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Gunner Palace - A New Look at Iraq
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dolcevita
Extraordinary
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:24 pm Posts: 16061 Location: The Damage Control Table
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 Gunner Palace - A New Look at Iraq
RT wrote: Four months after President Bush declared the end of "major combat" operations in Iraq, American soldiers of the 2/3 Field Artillery AKA the "Gunners," continued to endure what they jokingly call "minor combat." Their barracks are the bombed out pleasure palace (complete with swimming pool and putting green) of Sadaam Hussein's son - located right in the middle of the most volatile section of Baghdad. With total access to all unit operations and activities, filmmaker Michael Tucker provides an inside look at the war not seen on the nightly news. Gunner Palace is a chaotic, surprising, real and sometimes amusing look inside the Iraq war as experienced and told first hand by our troops.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/gunner_palace/
Looks pretty interesting, I stumbled upon it two days ago in the NYTimes review:
"A welcome antidote to the self-convinced rhetoric of pundits and politicians." - From A.O.Scott
It had a 91% Approval rating over at RT. I'm going to try and check it out, but I'm surprised I've not heard about it before. The "activist" documentary surge before the election seemed to have killed the enthusiasm for documentaries. Its too bad, not that all the docs were bad, just that there were so many of them between F/911, The Corporation, that other 911 backlash film Disney released, Outfoxed, etc. Lets hope if this one is strong it gets a bit more attention soon.
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Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:50 am |
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torrino
College Boy T
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:52 pm Posts: 16020
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I saw the trailer for this when I saw Sideways...
I want to see it...I just hope it isn't gone in three weeks because, with this theme, I really have to be in the "right" mood or else I won't get much out of it...
You might find this article interesting, dolcevita. It doesn't really cover what the directors/producers did to get the rating, but it provides some nice background information and it's fascinating that they got the PG-13...:
LOS ANGELES, Feb. 24 -- In a rare reversal, members of the board that rates motion pictures decided Thursday to give the new Iraq war documentary "Gunner Palace" a PG-13 instead of an R, agreeing with the filmmakers that the raw language of real American soldiers in Baghdad was appropriate for younger audiences -- who themselves might be considering joining the armed forces.
Last month, the Classification and Ratings Administration gave "Gunner Palace" an R rating, not because of the violence it contains but because of the repeated use of harsh language by members of the 2/3 Field Artillery (who call themselves "gunners"), stationed in a particularly lethal neighborhood in Baghdad after the fall of the city. The palace in the title refers to the soldiers' occupation of one of Uday Hussein's former mansions.
"This was not about publicity. It was about doing the right thing," said Michael Tucker, who directed the 85-minute documentary with his wife and producer Petra Epperlein. The film opens in Washington on March 4.
"What does a soldier say when a mortar round hits his compound?" Tucker said. "You don't say 'golly.'
"This is not about the number of times they use [a particular expletive], it's about soldiers," Tucker said. "The cultural landscape is shifting. You need to keep each film in context. There's nothing we should be ashamed of. These are important words. And this is how soldiers express themselves during war."
The ratings board, which was created 37 years ago by Jack Valenti, then head of the Motion Picture Association of America, rates 700 films a year. Since 1968, Valenti said, only 250 films have formally appealed their ratings, and of those, only about one-third have prevailed. "The system works," said Valenti, who has not seen "Gunner Palace." He said the purpose of the rating system is not censorship but a way for parents to make informed decisions about the movies their children see.
Last year, filmmaker Michael Moore asked that the rating for his documentary "Fahrenheit 9/11" be changed to a PG-13. The film had been given an R because of "violent and disturbing images" and foul language. Moore's appeal failed.
Similarly, Steven Spielberg's World War II film "Saving Private Ryan" was given an R rating in 1998 for its language and violence. When the movie aired on television on Veterans Day, many stations declined to show it, fearing fines from the Federal Communications Commission.
"Gunner Palace" tells the story of ordinary soldiers in extraordinary situations. They go out on patrol, they arrest Saddam Hussein's former henchmen and other insurgents. They fear roadside bombs, random shootings and nightly mortar attacks.
They also are shown hanging out in the former palace, playing guitars, swimming in the pool, talking about their experiences and perceptions. Some of the soldiers rap for the cameras. They talk about their longing for a cold beer. Others, either frightened or angry or clowning around, use foul language. They are, in the classic sense, ordinary grunts fighting a war. They don't disparage their mission, but they also are not boosters.
"They're trying to survive," said Tucker, who spent months with the gunners. During and after the filming, several of the featured soldiers were wounded or killed.
In the ratings board process, the first group of viewers who rated the film were 12 parents. They screened the movie together and announced their verdict: an R for the repeated use of a particular expletive, among other things.
The makers of "Gunner Palace" appealed that decision Thursday to a different board, composed of movie studio representatives and theater owners, which voted 9 to 3 to change the rating to PG-13.
Andy Robbins, the head of theatrical marketing for Palm Pictures, the film's distributor, said he and Tucker argued that the U.S. military has "unrestricted" access to America's teenagers for recruitment purposes.
Robbins said that a part of the Bush administration's No Child Left Behind Act makes federal funding for schools contingent upon military recruiters having access to students' addresses and phone numbers.
Tucker, who has shown his film in the House and Senate, in screenings hosted by Rep. Jim McDermott (D-Wash.) and Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.), says the documentary is not an antiwar polemic but a ground-eye view of American soldiers at war.
During their arguments before the ratings appeal board Thursday, Robbins quoted from a Variety editorial penned by Valenti, who was arguing that "Saving Private Ryan" should be shown on TV in its entirety. Yes, there's some foul language in the war movie, Valenti wrote, "but there is something larger here. It cries out to be seen by every young boy and girl in the land."
"People need to respect the experience of these soldiers," Tucker said. "They can understand that this is reality versus fiction. We need to be adult about this. These are young soldiers in combat. There is an array of emotion. And I think this is appropriate for some teens to see."
© 2005 The Washington Post Company
I love that line about saying golly...
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Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:21 pm |
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dolcevita
Extraordinary
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:24 pm Posts: 16061 Location: The Damage Control Table
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torrino wrote: I saw the trailer for this when I saw Sideways... I want to see it...I just hope it isn't gone in three weeks because, with this theme, I really have to be in the "right" mood or else I won't get much out of it... You might find this article interesting, dolcevita. It doesn't really cover what the directors/producers did to get the rating, but it provides some nice background information and it's fascinating that they got the PG-13...: LOS ANGELES, Feb. 24 -- In a rare reversal, members of the board that rates motion pictures decided Thursday to give the new Iraq war documentary "Gunner Palace" a PG-13 instead of an R, agreeing with the filmmakers that the raw language of real American soldiers in Baghdad was appropriate for younger audiences -- who themselves might be considering joining the armed forces.
Last month, the Classification and Ratings Administration gave "Gunner Palace" an R rating, not because of the violence it contains but because of the repeated use of harsh language by members of the 2/3 Field Artillery (who call themselves "gunners"), stationed in a particularly lethal neighborhood in Baghdad after the fall of the city. The palace in the title refers to the soldiers' occupation of one of Uday Hussein's former mansions.
"This was not about publicity. It was about doing the right thing," said Michael Tucker, who directed the 85-minute documentary with his wife and producer Petra Epperlein. The film opens in Washington on March 4.
"What does a soldier say when a mortar round hits his compound?" Tucker said. "You don't say 'golly.'
"This is not about the number of times they use [a particular expletive], it's about soldiers," Tucker said. "The cultural landscape is shifting. You need to keep each film in context. There's nothing we should be ashamed of. These are important words. And this is how soldiers express themselves during war."
© 2005 The Washington Post Company I love that line about saying golly...
Very interesting approach actually. They're basically trying to "anit-market" the army. I mean, they are countering its mytholigization in adds, the government, etc. I remember seeing 9/11 when they go recruit touths and make it seem like a business, which it is, but Gunner Palace is showing what the business of being a fott soldier actually is. Think it might be a deterrence to future people not to enlist? I don't know, could be a possible attempt to counter the army as a great job. That's not to say people who don't want to serve won't, but that people that are just doing it for work might think twice. I don't know how that goes, since I don't know how many people actually do that, but the socio-economic breakdown of entry-level troops is hard to ignore. I wonder how gunner palace is going about this, and I'm pleasantly surprised by the rating.
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Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:22 pm |
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dolcevita
Extraordinary
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:24 pm Posts: 16061 Location: The Damage Control Table
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Saw the trailer for it today. As usual, the soundtrack was god awful, but the praise they noted, and the actual footage were very interesting.
http://www.gunnerpalace.com/press/2005/01/neu.html
A review from the site that was in the trailer:
Quote: Of the many ways to convey a war story, Michael Tucker decided early in making "Gunner Palace" to stick with one: Let the soldiers tell it.
As a result, his 85-minute documentary on the war in Iraq captures a mix of bravado and anxiety, frustration and determination and a chillingly grim sense of humor.
At one point, a young soldier points to metal plating recently attached to his vehicle, and, facing Tucker's camera, notes wryly:
"Part of our $87 billion budget provided some secondary armor we put on top of our thin-skinned Humvee. ... It will probably slow down the shrapnel so that it stays in your body instead of going clean through."...
.... Tucker's narrative voice, unlike that of Michael Moore's in "Fahrenheit 9/11," doesn't assert a singular point of view. Instead, the young soldiers assigned to fight the war come to grips with it themselves.
At times, their comments seem contradictory, and Tucker doesn't try to erase or gloss over the contradiction.
One soldier, assessing the mission in Iraq, says, "I don't feel like I'm defending our country anymore and that sucks." But asked if he's proud of what he's doing, he says yes: "How many people can say they're combat veterans? 19 years old and I fought in a war."...
I will try to see this soon, it looks interesting, and goes into wider release on this weekend, the 11th.
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Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:00 pm |
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dolcevita
Extraordinary
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:24 pm Posts: 16061 Location: The Damage Control Table
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What a frustrating documentary. I was expecting to be able to read something into it. But the director was so hesitant to toe any line in his weeping "A the horrors of war," that I couldn't get into it. As to the language, the majority of it came from an atrocious soundtrack blaring throughout the entire film that makes the F9/11 bit seem tame and smart. I don't understand what a verse about pussy had to do with any of it, but that's just me.
Its hard to condemn this movie, since it set out to do what it entended, pretty much interview these guys and chronicle half of them get killed. There are some very poignant moments both as far as what some of the soldiers say, and also certain scenes, but they were dwarfed by un-needed footage, the bad soundtrack, and a narrative monologue by the director that was irritating. He spoke about how he is lucky and just gets to go home. That could have been a great moment in discussing problems with consciencious non-fighters, but that was an opportunity lost. Several of the detainees were mentioned as being sent to Abu Ghraib, but it doesn't go into that either. It is just pretty frenetic, choppy, and doesn't quite manage to weave any consistent points. It doesn't even get that into how frightened, or desensitived, or hyper-sensitized the soldiers have begun. It kind of goes nowhere. That was dissappointing. Not a C, but getting pretty close.
I think the PG13 was fine. Its pretty honest (though unstructured) and as I mentioned, most of the language isn't noticeable. Its in a loud sountrack, the soldiers themselves only sweared occasionally. As to it being violent, there's a high amount of violence by now in PG13, the difference being this is "reality" rather than orchestrated. So I guess it depends on which youths should be more exposed to. I personally think they should see more of this stuff than say, Arnold movies. Might put violence more into proportion.
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Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:29 pm |
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torrino
College Boy T
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:52 pm Posts: 16020
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So, it's uneven and doesn't really preach anything.
Great.
When you talk about Fahrenheit 9/11 being tame and smart, are you referring to the use of the soundtrack or the film itself? I didn't really have any problems with the soundtrack in FH 9/11...
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Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:36 pm |
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dolcevita
Extraordinary
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:24 pm Posts: 16061 Location: The Damage Control Table
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Yeah, I meant the addition of the "rock" song, or whatever it would be called, during the tank scenes. When I say it seemed smart, I meant that there was a precedence for it since one of the kids actually said he listened to the song while fighting to get pumped up and over his fear. In Gunner its not like he creates a audio montage of all the songs he finds out they've been listening to, one has to wonder where he got the lyrics and slected those particular pieces. There are some rappers amongst the troops, so I might be confuced, perhaps they selected it, but I doubt it, because it was nothing like what they were singing about (they had some rappers and poets do pieces). And of course it was very dumb lycics like "Yo yo yo I be in Iraq, we in Iraq" or something to hit the audiance over the head with. No kidding? This is a film about soldiers in Iraq? I didn't realize, thanks for pointing it out over and over again in the soundtrack.
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Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:46 pm |
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torrino
College Boy T
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:52 pm Posts: 16020
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dolcevita wrote: Yeah, I meant the addition of the "rock" song, or whatever it would be called, during the tank scenes. When I say it seemed smart, I meant that there was a precedence for it since one of the kids actually said he listened to the song while fighting to get pumped up and over his fear. In Gunner its not like he creates a audio montage of all the songs he finds out they've been listening to, one has to wonder where he got the lyrics and slected those particular pieces. There are some rappers amongst the troops, so I might be confuced, perhaps they selected it, but I doubt it, because it was nothing like what they were singing about (they had some rappers and poets do pieces). And of course it was very dumb lycics like "Yo yo yo I be in Iraq, we in Iraq" or something to hit the audiance over the head with. No kidding? This is a film about soldiers in Iraq? I didn't realize, thanks for pointing it out over and over again in the soundtrack.
You're so particular about soundtracks. And, you've got a great ear.
Hell, I didn't even consider the "I can't take my eyes off of you" line you found offensive in Closer. I was glued to the screen and it clearly wasn't registering!
But, yeah. Even if it weren't about soldiers in Iraq, the "Yo Yo Yo I be in Iraq, we in Iraq" would still be embarassing. 
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Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:58 pm |
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dolcevita
Extraordinary
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:24 pm Posts: 16061 Location: The Damage Control Table
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Yeah, that I can't take my eyes off of you killed me. I hate it when directors use soundtracks to treat the audiance like idiots. Its like in film school they were taught never to be explicit through the characters, so Gunner's Michael Tucker couldn't just have the soldiers all the time mentioning their location. Instead he just had some really grating rap song about pussy and b****** saying it all the time...you know, just in case you missed it. Which you might have, seeing as how you could have thought the movie was about abrasive sex. One part was though, were the soldier talks about Saddam wearing women's clothing and panties in hiding. Never ceases to amaze me how war gets gendered, and that supposedly intelligent filmmakers continue to propagate those readings without even providing any commentary about it.
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Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:16 pm |
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dolcevita
Extraordinary
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:24 pm Posts: 16061 Location: The Damage Control Table
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torrino wrote: ]BTW, I didn't love Gunner Palace but I didn't hate it. It got a pretty good crowd reaction, though. Frankly, even if FH is biased, I love Moore's spunk. He just seems to care much more about the material and he's got a good eye.
Don't mind if I transferred? I wanted to respond but here. I agree with you about Moore's direction. I just think being disengaged in this situation, and just voicing over some "deep thoughts" about going to your nice comfty home while soldiers are confined to their fate of 200 more days of service doesn't really go anywhere.
Last edited by dolcevita on Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:24 am |
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A. G.
Draughty
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:23 am Posts: 13347
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Great discussion. I've seen some extended segments of this movie, and an intereview with the director. What I get out of you two's discussion above is that the material that was shot was good raw material for an interesting documentary but that the movie was badly edited? That might bother some more than others, depending on how much they can overlook the mysoginistic sound track and other offputting elements. Perhaps it needed Michael Moore's touch not in his political sense but just in his skill as an editor which objectively is very good.
Good thread. 
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Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:25 pm |
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dolcevita
Extraordinary
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:24 pm Posts: 16061 Location: The Damage Control Table
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Well, it wasn't just editting for me, it was his desire to not pass judgement. Moore edits a narrative into his footage in a way that Gunner Palace is just all over the place. Its almost feels like raw footage and little more. I went back and looked at some other reviews, which I do only after writing mine, and noticed many comparisons to Sheen's voiceover in Apocalypse Now. That here, the director(documenter) provides this monotone insight into the horrors he sees. That is a good point, but for me 1.I didn't love Apocalypse Now, and 2. Apocalyspe now had larger issues about defection, disinterest, and violent culture. It attempted to creat a fairly liner drama about a man who sees too much (two men actually). In Gunner Palace, Tucker doesn't even want to go as far as to say "this violent culture is too much." Instead he just says, "this is how it is there." Which is a subtle but big difference. Ultimately it could have used a good stroyteler, as it stands it just felt like random scenes and interviews spliced together. Oddly enough, it wasn't, since he has a chronological film (counts down the days until they can go home), but it just failed to impress or remain with me in anyway more than, say, a newspaper picture would (sans the newspaper article, since their isn't much in the way of a historic account, etc).
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Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:46 pm |
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torrino
College Boy T
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:52 pm Posts: 16020
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It isn't particularly the editing that's bad. A lot of it just has to do with the director's decisions (as dolce mentioned - the music, his inability to get a point across, etc). I think Tucker wanted it this way, and, well, it isn't very good as a result...It just seems like a pile of footage piled together. At least in The Real World, there's solutions that "need" to be solved..
It's kinda hard to be bored. Sure, there's no big point in the movie but it's only around seventy minutes and there's a lot of material. What there is to show, though, is pretty much captured in the trailer. A different aspect of the war that's told by soldiers. The trailer captures a lot of it - the movie is loud. Very loud.
I'd say it's worth a rent. It's almost guarenteed Best Documentary since the Academy passed on Iraq war films last year and this one is inoffensive. I gave it a B-. It's the worst documentary I've ever seen, but, then again, I haven't seen many. Documentaries can be emotionally involving (yes, even ones that aren't made by Moore), such as Spellbound. It requires a lot of the same techniques that, say, dramatic directors use, but it's much harder to capture (because you're limited to what others do. you can't decide...). And, this one doesn't mix it well.
But, yeah, the director needed to make a point and get more involved. He just sits by the sidelines as soldiers curse and party. You could take ten cameras and just pull random footage out of each one.
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Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:47 pm |
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