Technically, Jesus was not born on Decemeber 25th, If you read the bible it sounds like the surroundings are sometime in the middle of August. Its when the Christian Church decided to celebrate it.

:? What? You're still skipping around the fact that it's CHRISTmas.

As for the beauty of the celebration, you still forget that without Christ, there wouldn't be a celebration. Period.

Some Protestant churches do.

Some of your best hymns were composed for Thanksgiving.

In Canada, it has nothing to do with the Mayflower, which was the original Ship of Fools. :wink:

We celebrate it an entire month early in Canada. Month and a half, really.

I'm not comparing the two holidays. I'm showing you how ridiculous your claim of "only celebrate Christmas if you're Christian" is. It's like saying you can only celebrate Thanksgiving if you're a white european because the holiday was created by your kind for you only.

Thanksgiving was not supposed to be religious only giving thanks even though the Catholic Church holds a mass service for giving thanks to god even though the original meaning of the holiday has nothing to do with it

protestants are cheap catholics.

It's not ridiculous at all. Do you even realize that when you say Christmas, you're referring to a day that surrounds someone you supposedly do not even believe in? And if you do, you're not even an atheist. Quit trying to go to another day completely, and answer my question. Do not start with all this crap about traditions, or the music, or the celebration. Everyone continues to skip around the fact that without Christ, there is no Christmas, therefore if you don't believe in Christ, you don't believe in Christmas. Santa Claus was brought about AFTER Jesus's birth. If Santa came first, then this discussion would be ridiculous. But, he wasn't.

I disagree. do you know any people who cinsider themselves culturally and traditionally Catholic but may have doubts in the actual presentation of how God exists in the bible? I assure you there are plenty. I think what is confusing here is that one should probably be affiliated with Christianity and celebrate Christmas, or affiliated with Islam to celebrate Ramadan. It has nothing to do about their personal feelings towards God, it just has to do with what religious group they identify themselves as being part of.

BTW, Coptic and Orthodox celebrate Easter one week later I believe, so its already debateable on if it has to do with actual historic events or if ceremonial holidays have more to do with reflectioning on historical and religious events. One can reflect on the death of Jesus, which I believe did in fact happen, without making the leap to say I beleieve in the Trinity.

Furthermore, lets just suppose I married a Catholic, and decided to celebrate Christmas because (s)he felt it was important to continue that tradition (I would expect the same if vice versa). Now, if I relate to his/her desire to continue religious traditions, perhaps because of children (gah...this is a real hypothetical situation) that we think should be exposed to and continue them, does that mean I shouldn't celebrate it even though I don't believe in Judgement day or the second coming. Holidays are just as much about community and family orientation and advocacy as they are about a literal interpretation of the divine set forth in a religious text.

Dolce, most holidays can be about families and celebration. But, if you're going to celebrate a day of giving, celebration, and happiness, don't refer to it as Christmas. Christmas is just blindly associated with all of that now, because of the commercialization of the day. I guess that's my point. If you're going to celebrate all of that, call it something else.

Here's a question for you: why do you care? Why are you so upset by this? An atheist celebrating Christmas effects your life in absolutely no way, yet you harbor such anger and resentment over it. Christmas is not your holiday, just as Thanksgiving is not my holiday. It's a day for everyone to have fun and be with their loved ones. It's up to you to make it into something more, or not. You need to get over this. Almost every person on the face of the planet celebrates Christmas, and guess what? They're not all Christians.

oh hell, you expect me to believe everything that says in the bible. I can take waht i can and leave waht i can. You really expect me to believe that one day god took 7 days to make the earth where there is scientific proof that it didn't. The bible gives us lessons and we don't have to believe them. The lesson of that story is that God has mighty power.

Dolce, You make a very good point with the last paragraph. The reason why i'm saying that is that Christmas is crazyily commercialized that its all about the family coming and the community not abotu God. It SHOULD be about Jesus and Mary and etc etc but its not and its unfortunate.

Not at all.

First there was the Saturnalia. It was exactly the same as Christmas. You didn't have to be a Roman to celebrate it. It's a very old traditional holiday. After Constantine, the Chrs just changed the name of the holiday. it actually has nothing to do with Jesus... nor does Easter.

Whoa... my lettering came out all funny...

Anyway, I just believe that the day itself SHOULD be celebrated by all, but it should not be called Christmas, if you don't believe in it.

Look, I'm not looking for enemies here. My only point is No Christ = No Christmas, and if you don't believe in God or Jesus or any of that, don't call it Christmas.

The same people who are saying Christmas is commercialized are the same ones lining up at the malls at 5am the day after Christmas.

Well when you don't got money (ie myself) and your tv has gone to shit (ie the tv in my room) it's nice to get it 75% off.

Not me. You kidding? Mobs like that would chew me up and spit me out. :wink:

I agree, I have no problem with it. But its hypocritical to say "christmas is to commercial" while at the same time buying and recieving 200 presents.

So you're saying he's a liar? There was only 3 things he could be - a lord, a liar, or a lunatic. I don't see how someone could believe he was just a great teacher. Then what's with him saying he's the son of God?

**I'm not trying to be mean or anything, makeshift_wings...

200 presents I hope your just making that up

This entire thread is falling on my deaf ears, as the witty Soviet rulers decided to celebrate the New Years day instead back in the day, so that is what I celebrate.

Plus the whole Hannukah thing.

Wrell, why shouldn't celebrating Christmas be about, well passing down the tradition of Christmas to following generations. All holidays are about family and community. I didn't say it was about buying toys, and neither did you. Its about reflecting on historical significance and identity. Reflection doesn't have to mean blind embracement, elements of critiicsm and doubt can be involved, otherwise we'd all still wouldn't believe in heliocentrism. Can't Christmas be about relecting on Christian history and theology vs. just licking it up out of the hands of John?

I must be getting tired. That "Do Not Cling To Me" quote freaked me out, because I had no idea where it came from. Quote, post, QUOTE! So not good order. I think I'll leave this debate open for other people, since I'm getting tired all of a sudden.

As I said earlier, I'm not sure that he existed or not. I'm just saying what it says he said in the bible are good teachings. If he was real, then he was both a liar and a lunatic with a great message.

SO MR.X, Rusty...whoever else? Do you attend church on a regular basis?