Yes I do realize this, and most of them expect our commander in chief to exaust all options before putting them in harms way...which he didnt.

secondly, what does michael moore have to do with anything?

Good on Krem, Im clapping my hands in praise right now
Do you feel better now that you "outwit" a "typical ignorant liberal"
Just because I answered your "question" with a question is no need to be an ass.

I brought him up bescause he was probably the source of your stat about congress. It was a promenent point of F9/11.

Bill, I'm sorry to be harsh, but the number of congressmen's children serving in Iraq has nothing to do with the COngres's decision to go to war there. We live in a free country, where every person can go to the military if they want to. Don't bring up class warfare into this. Sure, the majority of military men are from the lower-middle class, but that doesn't mean anything. They chose that path for themselves, nobody forced them to. There are other ways to make it in this country, the military is far from being the only option.

The Congress is there to make legislative decisions and declare war. That's what it does. We declared the war in Iraq because we felt it was a threat that had to be taken care of. You may not agree with that, and I respect that. But, say we didn't declare the war, and there was an attack on us today by terrorists that used Saddam's weapons. Would you have wanted the Congress to have delcared war to prevent those attacks? Would you care how many Congressmen's children were in the military then?

Speaking of military men, where are they going to get them from?



I wasn't sure where to post this. Addressing Iraq because of immeidate needs, or placing it in Iran or a new thread on the Axis of Evil and/or N. Korea. Really what it comes down to it...well how are we going to keep this up when U.S. citizens love the idea of it sitting from their couches...but not enough to enlist for Uncle Sam? There is just no way to beat around the bush that regardless of intention, is our current method even feasable? I know we're not going to have a draft. Who knows. For sure we can't spread it thin by looking to other Axis countries right now unless we really recruit and use international troops.

-Dolce

just watched the news, main story: american soldier shooting injured iraqi dead.

Yeah, I heard about that yesterday. Looks like there's a tape of the incident.

hans, krem, is there a link? I've not heard about this, and have no idea what you're talking about.

As to a little update from Mosul, which has seen a lot of activity but played second fiddle to Falluja.



Well, I just posted an article that reflects my own opinions that this isn't a terrorist organization with historic presecence. Its not like you can just slowly pick off everyone one at a time, the system is set up to replace them just as quickly. I don't think there is a last man standing. Which is troublesome, because it does mean that for all these efforts, people and funding and intelligence are just being re-chaneled to some other area, and will manifest three weeks from now. We'll be surprised and ask "Where did all that come from?"

-Dolce

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/ ... index.html

Here's the link.

As for the "systematic problem", once again, I have to disagree there. As Iraq transforms to a free society, there will be less and less incentive to commit terrorist acts. When a country is in chaos like that, it is indeed a breeding ground for terrorism; that's all the more reason to try and normalize it.

it was showing the tape (up until he shoots) on the news, pretty disturbing stuff. How much of this sort of stuff is going on? i mean this only got publicised because of the video evidence.

I've been reading about these war crimes for weeks over at

http://www.rense.com/

There's evidence of how pumped up these 19 year old white kids from Kansas get in Fahrenheit 9/11. They think it's a video game. And we expect people from Iraq to trust and show restraint against the US.

Fog of War indeed.

I'll post the fi9rst couple paragraphs for everyone,



Well, as glad as I am their making the exterior efforts of claiming accountability for their actions, they're still basicially asigning most of the responsibilty to the lowest common denominator (the individual soldier) instead of addressing larger systematic abuses. The ability to continuously divide and seperate these individual incidents so as not to address larger psychological issues in warfare and in military training is a shocker. Hopefully enough people are peicing the events together and realizing that as much as I would love to believe its a couple teenagers...its clearly not. There is immense pressure here, of that I am sure.

That being said one of my friends went through military training (he did and then quit later on), and I saw what they tried to indoctrinate him into. There's a fine line between capability and complete dissassociation. Loyal, you mentioned the teens in F9/11, but Moore covered several. Sure, one of them was playing rock music, and that troubled me, but there was another guy who admitted everytime he shot someone he lost a little of his own life. As in he now was cognicent of his own actions, and that would always stay with him. I prefer that as a discussion in war. Those guys are over there, and are getting their jobs done (now this is regardless of if we think that job is pointless of not, I'm trying to remove that from this discussion) and I just think the military should teach a little more about the consequences of one's actions. I know its not easy, and I know they "toughen" these guys and girls up because otherwise they would all go crazy under the immense pressure of the situation, but they need to strat initiating a discourse and policy of respect for what's going on here.

-Dolce

last time I checked ...

It was a all vollenteer army.

Obviously it makes sense for people who dont go to college or dont have money to go to the army for help.

If you hate bush because he is rich ... thats just hypocritical.

KJ

Its been confirmed that care worker Margret Hasan has been killed by terrorists.

Just to offer an alternative viewpoint... In no way, I'm endorsing what he did, I'm against the war in Iraq, but people shouldn't act surprised that stuff like this is happening in Iraq... It is a war, what do you expect...

U.S. Marines Rally Round Iraq Probe Comrade

Tue Nov 16,10:36 AM ET

By Michael Georgy

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. Marines rallied round a comrade under investigation for killing a wounded Iraqi during the offensive in Falluja, saying he was probably under combat stress in unpredictable, hair-trigger circumstances.

Marines interviewed on Tuesday said they didn't see the shooting as a scandal, rather the act of a comrade who faced intense pressure during the effort to quell the insurgency in the city.

"I can see why he would do it. He was probably running around being shot at for days on end in Falluja. There should be an investigation but they should look into the circumstances," said Lance Corporal Christopher Hanson.

"I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."

THE REST AT LINK...

And BTW, the CNN article above also mentions the Amnesty Intl. report about how neither side is upholding the so-called 'laws of engagement':

It's hard to say. He may or not be in violation, but certainly this isn't some sort of unprecedented act.

John Kerry shot down a Vietnamese peasant who he thought to be a threat too.

Wow, just when I thought you couldn't lower yourself anymore.

Wow, just when I thought you couldn't lower yourself anymore.

do you even live in America cuz man you show some unpatriotic qualities. I don't know why you're backing up John Kerry for that cuz its pretty much true.

How is he being unpatriotic?...Im serious, I dont see it

its not just that one post but it seems like every post he does its always against America and the american troops....just my opinion. Take it or leave it

My bad, I thought you meant that post

Excuse me?

It's in his fucking biography.

Krem, leave the truth out of this. Mightyeldo don't play that game.

It's two completely different situations.

I am actually very patriotic. I am actually English too.

I also wish people would or could even understand the difference between being Anti-american and Anti-Bush admin.

I also have nothing against the American military, only the ones in command. Those poor guys are around my age facing death everyday. I really feel sorry for them sacrificing their lives and fighting for a worthless and pointless war.

I read an article about how Americans in Fallujah were answering sniper fire with Abrams tank rounds and the article was trying to make out how awful this was. Thing is, if I was over there I'd do the exact same thing.

The country is just a complete mess, just look at mosul now and it disgusts me that these young guys are over there constantly under attack.