Over the past few days, I have been in Michigan attending the wedding of my cousin. It was rather depressing, as for many years I had pictured myself with her, and now shes off the market.

Imagine my supprise when I come back and find there were a few fights on the forums. I probably looked about as shocked as Michael Jackson did when people started saying he had a sexual interest in little boys.


Incase you missed the action, or are just to cheap to spring for ring side seats, the undercard was Baba vs the Tag Team of Mr. X and Michael, and the main event saw Michael (in an amazing show of endurance) come out again to tango with Goldie. Here is where I will explain my reaction, the actions WoKJ will take, and why.

Lets start with the undercard (Baba, Michael, Mr. X)

A rather tame 'fight', more of an issue and discussion really. The only reason I even bring this up here, is because of something Michael said. I am paraphrashing, but I believe he was suggesting that I held some kind of dislike for him.

I would like to start by saying that I don't dislike or harbour any ill feelings toward you, Michael. While I am on that note, I don't harbor any ill feelings towards any of the members of WoKJ, infact, I can't even think of one person period that I really harbor any ill feelings towards.

That said, I happen to believe you are just manifesting my decisions, as a dislike for you, which is completly unfair. I understand you may not always agree with how I operate things, and that is your right, I understand as well that you my feel some of the decisions regarding you are foolish, and I am sorry for that as well. However that is a difference of opinion, and one you must live with, yet you must seperate that from my feelings toward you as they are not related or intertwined at all. Mav once said the same thing to me, and I tried to explain to him as well, that I held no dislike or ill feelings towards him, rather I was simply acting on what i felt was best for the forum at the time.

With regards to the thread created:

I don't feel it should have been closed. This is because, while redundant, overdone, played out, and unfunny ... at it's heart it is no different than many other threads similarly created. I often rely on the users of the forum themselves. I like to give you all the benifit of the doubt. Often a thread could go in multiple forums, and I tend to let the user decide where they want it. This same theory holds true to duplicate threads. Unless it is a direct duplicate, I tend to be very leinant with regards to re-hash threads. Clone threads, and things of this nature, while I personally find boring, are let go. The same goes for Garner threads, Bush bashing threads, Pope Bashing threads, and anything else related. Users have a strange power in that if they simply don't reply to a thread, it rather quickly dies a short and unfufilling death. The thread in question was a twist on a bland and over played joke, its only crime was its stupidity.


Onto the main event. (Goldie vs Michael, RougeCommander, Forum in General, Everyone ever born)

Goldie has been in a frenzy recently.

From the quote list, to Michael, to RC, to various other things.

In short, Goldie has not really been the type of user I like to see on these forums. He has been involved in multiple arguments, created a generaly negative atmosphere at events which should only be positive in nature.

This is a problem.

It needs to be rectified.

Question is, how?


The answer is unfourtunatly not so simple. I absolutly love discussing movies, a love that I believe many of us, including Goldie share. I could easily ban Goldie, rid the forum of the arguments and fights which he has directly or indirectly caused. I am sure alot of you would welcome this decision, and it would make my life much easier. Goldie would lose his chance to discuss something he loves within this community, but we would generally move without skipping a proverbial beat.

Yet I find something telling me that this simply is not the correct path to follow for a multitude of reasons.

For starters, I hate the idea of denying anyone the right to participate in the discussions generated here, especially if they want to be here. However, wanting to be here also carries with it the acceptance of the rules that the Moderating Team has laid out for you, rules that Goldie has broken, broken most recently by using profanity explicitly directed at another member.

Things are never cut and dry, and in this situation, that holds very true.

I have talked with Goldie in the past and always came away with the feeling that he did want to be here, want to be part of the community, and want to abide by the rules. Yet there is no denying that in the past, and very recently, he has broken those rules. I can not help but place myself for a minute in Goldies shoes. I find myself feeling a bit attacked, and unwanted. I feel that even if I wanted to change, to become a better member, it would be nearly impossible. Infact it would be like trying to scale an unscaleable wall.

The simple fact of the matter is, I asked everyone here a while ago to help me out, I asked you all to give Goldie that chance to discuss movies peacefully within the community. I asked you all to help me create the kind of atmosphere you all want here. I asked that if you couldn't change your opinion, couldn't be accepting of Goldie, to at least ignore him as opposed to ostracizing him. I am once more asking you all, stop antagonizing Goldie. If you can't say anything nice to him, then simply say nothing at all. If you don't like him, don't post/open his threads, and don't respond to his responses in other threads.

The simple truth is you all haven't given him a chance. Believe it or not, Goldie actually has a pretty deep knowledge of movies that he rarely gets to display. I can not help but understand where Goldie is coming from.


Goldie, I will once more say to you, if you want to be a part of this forum, please folow the rules, no using swear words directed at other forum members please. I will also ask you to try and be a positive presence, discuss movies, offer your quotes, but leave some of the other stuff out of your posts. While I understand you were trying to help the process with the top quotes, all you came off as was overbearing, and insulting. Alot of people put alot of work into that process, and you took alot of the fun out of it for them, weather you meant to or not. Were you totally to blame for it? No. Do you share a large portion of the blame for it? Yes. Please don't respond if you disagree or agree, as I don't want to discuss it. That is my opinion, and in reality all I am asking you is to please try and stop being argumentative, and discuss more.

In the end, I have to make a decision, and I don't make it based on popularity. I am well aware I will here a variety of comments in this thread ranging from "But goldie this and But goldie that" to a multitude of other complaints. Sorry, but at this time, this is simply how I feel.


Goldie will not be banned, and I ask you to refer to above as for what I am asking of forum members in geneal.

It should be noted that just about every mod, baba, baumer, and most other living beings disagree with me on this. I have gone against the grain here, and am personally taking a deep responsibility for the matter at hand. If the forum does ignore/stop antagonizing goldie, and yet he continues to be a negative presence, I am reserving my right to ban him, even if he has not broken any more rules. I think everyone will agree that I have been quite leinant, and will be a fair judge (if not sided towards goldie). In the event that I feel goldie is continuing to be a negative presence without breaking any rules, I hope you will understand that decision as well, and I will once again try to explain it to the best of my ability. I just hope that I am right about two things.

A) That goldie really does want to be here, and is willing to work with me.

B) That the members of the forum will go that extra step of forgiveness and acceptance because they put the forum itself first.

Time reveals all.

I'm hoping that's a non-blood related cousin.

As for the Goldie situation, I, personally, don't have a huge problem with him. On the one hand, he creates good threads that brings up a lot of discussion (although he does bump them up a lot...). I appreciate that. He also sees a lot of movies, so it's nice at times to discuss certain movies with him in the 'Everyone's a Critic' forum.

What I don't appreciate, however, is the rude side of him, attacking other members, annoying members, and criticizing people who work so hard on great things like the 'WOKJ Top 100 Quotes' thread and almost all the award shows we've had in the past. It's unfair to those who actually contribute to making our forum better, and end up getting criticized and unappreciated for it.

As a mod of the forum, it's tough to deal with someone like Goldie because when you tell him to stop doing something, instead of understanding what we're talking about, he argues, argues, argues, and ends up making a thread on us in the 'The Site' section.

Some members should be more understanding to Goldie's nature, however they shouldn't have to fully tolerate him just because he's different. This goes into what Eagle was talking about when he said that all the mods disagree with him. I don't personally believe that all the members should tolerate his actions, but at the same time, atleast attempt to accept him like they would a normal user. From the moment Goldie came here, everyone had attacked him because of his reputation, and didn't give him a chance, which might be the reason why he has never changed his ways. After the numerous threads we've had regarding Goldie, I think people have become more tolerant, but Goldie is still the same ol' Goldie, not understanding what the mods tell him, not understanding the rules, and not appreciating some of the hard work people put into the site.

I like Goldie when we can discuss movies, which is why we're all here. I like Goldie when he makes those great threads with all the tables that he actually puts time into, and which are impressive. If we can have this Goldie 24/7, the whole forum will benefit.

Well, I read over what you said Eagle and I do have a few things I'd like to say...

First off, I'm going to apologize as I did unfairly "bait" Goldie into responding more then once. To be fair, Goldie really hasn't ever called me out unless I said something, and in that respect what I did to start the entire debacle was unfair.

Why did I do it? Well, I was trying to come to the defense of Loyal, whom I thought along with the judges did an excellent job in running the KJ Quotes List, but sadly that opinion was not shared by certain other members. Yes, Goldie was among them and the most vocal but he was not alone. Now, having said that, I decided to make a few comments here and there, and then eventually got into a flame war with Goldie. Most of this was my own doing because I generally feel I have to have the last word. This all being a few weeks ago, it came and went during the duration of Loyal's thread.

bABA PMed me and asked me to stop, I did and let everything sort of blow over. Then, however Goldie made another post, and if I remember correctly I posted something that yes, in all honesty was a complete bait job for him. He responded and I baited again. I didn't attack him as he had, but I did bait him once again which is when Zingaling stepped in.

Whatever the case with Goldie, I'm not going to say I'm not at least slightly at fault. I've said things I shouldn't have and posted baits and for that I do apologize.

Multiple warnings, consistent "Shut Ups", and saying right out loud, I DONT LIKE YOU, is how WOKJ is treating Goldie and with good reason. It's hard for a user, who loves movies as much as the rest of us, to discuss movies with someone who sometimes tends to be...one dimensional. Someone who believes what they want to believe and nothing could stop them from changing their opinion. Theres nothing wrong with that, all the power to him, but he has to learn that this is a Discussion community, and sometimes not everyone will agree with him, therefore, not everyone will believe what he believes. This is no excuse for relentness attacking, arguing and some very annoying complaining. There was a time, after his first "warning" that WOKJ was beggining to like him. They were complimenting his suggestions to award show threads, as well as complimenting his threads. This was a perfect opportunity for a so called "transformation". But he went back to his usual, "Im right-You Wrong" ways. WOKJ began to have a sour taste for Goldie, and now after countless warnings, he has failed to change and WOKJ is suffering for it.

I COULD ignore this, if I was the only user who had a problem with him. But much of the site, or atleast the influential part of the site can't tolerate him. I appreciate you Eagle for sticking up for the minority, but you have to realize, alot of your site can't really tolerate him much. This issue may escalate to another level where it may be too late to take action. Yes, he loves discussing movies, but this isn't the only discussion site on the net. There are hundreds of movie discussion forums, where Goldie has the perfect oppurtunity to start over, and hopefully learn a lesson from KJ.

I DO believe you should ban him. And although the ban shouldn't be permanent( 1 month AT THE MOST), it should teach him a lesson in tolerating others, as others try to tolerate him.

P.S. I doubt none of that post made sense, but ehh...Goldie is Goldie. It had to be discussed.

RC, thanks for that, it is much appreciated.

Your not alone in your sentiments on the quote thread. I shoulder alot of the blame for how that all went down, I was rather busy in other things, and was not really paying attention to it at the time. Most of the confrontation and actions in that thread could and should have been avoided, but I was far to late to act. In any event, I was very dissapointed that something Loyal and others worked very hard on, left them feeling the way it did.

They did a great job with it, and I look forward to upcoming lists.

Eagle, yeah I agree with you as far as dissapointment in how the thread ended up. Some of it is my fault I'm sure, and some belongs to others. I would also say that not all of the blame should rest on Goldie, as even people disagreeing with him caused the thread to lose validity.

Whatever the case, you do have my word that I will not do such things again. I've always enjoyed WoKJ, and I certainly don't want to see it loose people in part due to my actions...

I think it's cool of RC to own up to baiting Goldie, because I think that was rather obvious.

I read those topics and honestly I think Goldie was just trying to have a say, a vote, in what is happening.

It's quite obvious to more than a few of us that the clique is emerging. I can say it because sometimes I'm in it, and sometimes I'm not. The simple fact that loyal and I had an argument about whether or not I was even allowed to say anything about this secret panel was of interest to me. Like I told he and bABA, I could give a shit less about quotes on some meaningless list, but the fact that there are people that post this thing and then come out and say it was done by secret ballot is rather insulting.

There is an idea here, (and I'm NOT the only one who feels this way, believe me) that there is a group of about 10 people that are trying to impose some sort of "official" stance on these sort of issues. Coming up with committies and secrets and then speaking "for the community". This is the same sort of issue, in a way, which leads to things like the April Fools Day Fallout. There has been a lot of denial of this "group's" existence, but it generally is something that is perceptible to more than a few of us, whether the members understand this or not.

Goldie, in my view, is definately reacting against this. Against the idea that he will NEVER be consulted for anything and that generally no matter what he does he will automatically be an object of ridicule. And I think it's rather sad of us. Not everybody is as thick skinned as BKB and can have as much fun with it.

I believe he's brought it upon himself.


**please dont kill me**

Goldie has brought a lot onto himself. I don't think he would deny that. The issue at question is whether his anger of late is valid and whether or not this group of people would ever want to accept him ever again.

Just a question, not an attack, but are you refering to me?

If you are, or actually regardless whether or not I am part of this hypothetical "clique", I'm willing to forget the past and go on. If Goldie is willing to change, then for all I'm concerned, its a new page a new day and a new beginning.

No. Not you necessarily. Just in general.

Very good posts andaroo.

The thing I think you have to understand, is that even if these 'cliques' exist, and I am not so sure that they do, they have the best interest of the site at heart.

Now that isn't to say that it is OK, or that it should continue. Rather that they just want to make things better.



Regardless, your post is a valid one, yet does not tackle the problem of how to deal with the issue itself.

Oh Eagle there are definately "cliques" here. I can name quite a few!

Road to hell paved with... blah.


I think the first part of what I am trying to say, and I think it directly ties in with the Goldie-hate, is to recognize that these secret-ballot-meetings, etc. set people apart, and create different "classes" of WOKJ residents.

There has been a lot of denial, even on your own part, that these exist, but even regardless if they exist or NOT, there is a perception of at LEAST 5 members (and those are JUST the ones I talk to) that these little clubs exist and create anomisity. If we could recognize that there are problems or perception problems then we can start exploring solutions.

Who even knew this thread existed? Not me!
I should come to this area more often.

Anyway Eagle; I really don't want to bitch about why I feel devalued a little in the way I've been treated concerning administrative desicions; but suffice to say I was less than pleased in the not-by-the-book conduct ive recieved and I wasn't the only user to notice that I was being treated differently for whatever reason. However you and BaBa seem to think that you've acted fairly - and whilst i disagree i think we should leave it at that - agreeing to disagree. Im only here to have a laugh and don't want to be shackled by biterness.

As for Goldie - hes been in flamewars with users before for good reason - he stalked Lecter offsite and harrased me by email for quite sometime. Originally on KJ he didn't really annoy me but as time goes on its becoming more and more evident that hes baiting everyone here into arguments just as much as everyone is him; then hes crying the victim when anyone throws a punch. He was banned multiple times at BOM or so im told [my memory is vague] and hes been banned once from Nflsev; and im surprised he and a few other users have stuck around so long here considering their very very obvious argument mongering. Your right when you say people aren't giving him a chance - but for me he lost that chance on BOM; and then on NF7, and once again on KJ. As for his polls and "contributions" to site - i always find them slanting in a pretty obviously bias direction when Goldie tries to transmit this idea that hes almost a BOM like sterile robot which emits polls and threads covering all bases. Its pretty obvious that Goldie has very, very strong opinons about things - and he seems to try to totally obliterate that image of him by almost "trying too hard" not to have opinons, preferences or bias. Anyone who wen't to BOM will no that this "Goldie Roboto" we see now is definately not the person thats inside. The argumentitve and scary Goldie pops his head out from time to time like in that Garner thread where he basically...goes wild.

Now obviously - I probobly shouldn't have called Goldie an asshole. But i probobly shouldn't call Mariah Carey a Salami, or Hilary Duff a Horse Can of Beans. My point is that when im nasty its part of what Archie calls my "performance art" - people shouldn't take what I say particularly seriously unless i denote it otherwise. Do i think Mariah Carey is a giant sausage? No. Do i believe that Kate Hudson is a bitch just cause the Guardian says so? Of course not. But Goldie's consistent display of idiotic behaviour lead me to arrive at him as my first choice for "asshole" on KJ. However i should have thought what I said through a little more - as is many times the case on this website - as it probobly wasn't appropriate or kind.

I feel like im not writing enough right now - but i have to shoot. If i need to ammend anything i will.

starting BANNING members.
persons that start shit and others that react with more shits.
a week here, a week there and people will starting taking your rules seriously.

He would deny everything that speaks against him, so revise these views.

Here is a quick statement. Especially since Eagle said that, right now I am not in position to be banned.

In reading some of the posts, except Eagle's, I am a bit disappointed but that is only natural. I am glad that Eagle and Baba were away this weekend because I feel we had a turning point after a bloody first half. Especially after andaroo made a couple of comments and had some discussion with Rogue, Michael and others.

The reason that I am disappointed is that again people are only looking at half the story. I had a discussion with Z about people picking on me first but reading his comments above you would never know that happened. In addition, Rogue mentioned that he got a private warning to stop from Baba but he continued yet no MODS ever bothered to step in or make any kind of public statement defending me. However, there have always been public statements critizing me. I can post similar things that happened with plenty of others. Even some that crossed the line as Eagle mentioned I did. I think everyone will agree that is alittle unfair.

There is not much more to say - as I stated before - I only want to post comments and threads and then people can choose whether to answer - the same as anyone.

And believe me, there are plenty of threads and posts that I do not like or are bothered by them but I pass them instead of going in negatively about them. Only when someone got personal with me, did I return the negatives.

More than that, I will deal with Eagle by PM if people want to fight me personally as some have recently. and only if it is worthy of mentioning.

I'd just say that whilst i seem to be easily riled up on KJ id say im not alone in wondering why various users weren't banned a long time ago.

I feel the climate here is too "lenient" shall we say. Just because Sean went nuts dosent mean KJ has to make a point of not banning people.

Now im not saying go wild and start banning a dime a minute - but im just saying that KJ's banning policy is making the website a worse place to be.

The wierd thing is i refused to attack Goldie when prompted to earlier in KJ's development, claiming he didn't really bother me on KJ.
Then when the site seemed to gag the users Goldie was having a dispute with; his agression seemed to disperse much further across the site; until it inevitabily reached me.

Funny, a Goldie-related thread and my name is not even mentioned in the first post. Anyway, here are just a couple of comments:

1. The fact that cliques exist on the boards is a well-known one and I don't see a problem there. It's just like in real life. Back at BOM we had cliques as well. So what? The only thing where the problems start are if cliques involve mods/admins which might lead to biased reactions. Other than that, cliques among normal members are very fine by me. It'd be stupid to hold everyone apart

2. Has some baiting been going on? Probably. But you know, sometimes it gets at a point that negative reactions towards a person can't be avoided no more. Sometimes the stuff done in the past just overwhelms too much to stop being negative. I know it's an extreme example, but imagine Hitler were alive and on here. I doubt anyone would treat him normally, even if he didn't have any of his antics An extreme example, but an example nonetheless. I know, Karl, you've got this idealistic, hippie-peace-loving concept of the co-existance on the boards, but it won't work forever. It is not how people are. Read Michael's post above on him losing his chance. I absolutely agree on that. It is not a "new page a new day and a new beginning" because if so, then just go ahead and unban all the spammers that spammed WOKJ to no end.

3. Moreover, nothing can be changed about many problems anyway, since warnings at WOKJ are quite useless as Dolce has pointed out once. I doubt anyone is seriously afraid of the so-called "official warning". C'mon, be realistic. It's usually all words, no actions.

4. No matter what one thinks about Goldie's past, everyone's gotta admit that even nowadays his posts, while usually not offensive, are still highly irritating and annoying at times. It is possible to ingore him, though, indeed. Even I managed that and it's going quite well.

And if you want to hear my bluntly honest opinion, then I say that I do think that Goldie is much less worthy of a poster here than the vast majority of posters and barely contributes anything to the existance of the site and to the expansion of the boards and topics.. That is what I think. Therefore, there are two ways to deal with it. Either ban him for a while or just let him deal with the others and the others deal with him. I'd prefer the latter.

Hmm, that is a surpsingly well-written post from you. You know, if only you ever admitted to some of your faults and misssteps as well, that'd make the situation look much better. What bothers me the most is that you never do, you usually claim to be entirely innocent.

It's shit like this which baits people and causes arguments, by the way.

Even in a civil discussion, you have people talking down to him, and we wonder why there are problems.


Obviously if people become friends they are going to drift, but I think it's important to note when doing something "for the site" that these people either let EVERYONE vote, or pick a well balanced group of people to speak for the group.

Since the members of the "quote clique" aren't named, I cannot comment on how their group make up stands, but if it is mostly mods and a few members who happen to be friends and have a lot of power then yea, there are going to be conflicts. I wrote it off just as stupid, and let whoever have whatever fun they wanted, Goldie obviously felt slighted and seemed to want to have a voice in the matter.

The fact that your using yourself as "scapegoat" or acting like one is bullied is absolute balogna sandwich! Just as the users here have the option of ignoring some of your more..."loud" post or in other words your ignorance, you also have that option. You don't need to fight back, you dont need to give into baiting which you for some reason point out so quickly. I've tried giving you chances here and there, and I even told you to your "face" multiple times..sound more human.

You took none of the users advice, you took none of the mods warnings seriously, and yet, you want to place innocent.

I was not mad aware of these.



I said nothing of the sort. Rather I said bABA PMed me about responding to your posts. I've yet to do anything that is really "warnable" at least according to my interpretations of the rules. I've yet to come out and call you a "Fucking punk" or "retarded" as you have done repeatadly.

Look Goldie, I already said it, I'll start over. I'll hold no disdain for you. I'll hold no distrust. But for once, take some of the blame.

Its funny that even in the most serious of post, you plug your own site and threads.