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 lesbians fight to hold wedding reception in Catholic hall 
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jb007 wrote:
dolcevita wrote:
Ok bABA...that's the first clear explanation i've heard. That is too funny. i think what he meant was just questioning values of a group that in general rejects two people that want to love eachother while simultaneously trying to cover-up (so in some ways supporting) such acts as th MA issues three years ago or i believe the problems in Canada in the late 80's, etc. He's questioning where their social outrage is being directed as an institution, not all the individuals within either. I'm sure their were plenty of Priests that were upset by it etc. I think he;s speaking about the higher structure (il Papa) and what he dictates be the focii of condemnation as an organized institution. He's speaking institutional choices, not individual ones, since i would surely state that their were many individuals that were upset.

Sorry if I'm summing up both of your arguements wrong?



@Dolce, Your summation is right on the money.

@bABA, one cannot choose to be moral selectively. Either one is morally correct all the time or one loses that authority be it a priest or someone else. Further, where was the outrage from the evangelicals and the church over this matter? The same people that are so eager to trash movies, other religions and harmless TV shows like Sponge bob showed their true colors during the priest abuse scandal. These evangelicals are so screwed up that they are trying to convert people to Christianity in Tsunami ravaged areas. These are the same people who have termed your religion as " Satan's religion".

I have very little respect for evangelicals, racists and the morally corrupt. As of now the above trifecta is true of a good number of the vocal evangelicals in the US.

Personally I do not approve of homosexuality. That does not mean I am going to discriminate against them or anybody else. Everybody is a sinner and for evangelicals to act as if they are superior to others is simply ludicrous.


You're missing the point of my post altogether. I'm not saying what is morally right or wrong and people selecting between them. Your comments come off as a generalization that all priests partake in the activity listed above and that the entire catholic system approves of it. That is what bothers me.


Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:34 pm
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bABA, I'm not saying every single catholic priest did it. But they are culpable for not standing up for the victims. What I am saying is the church and the evangelicals lost that moral authority to judge people when they all remained silent during that scandal. The silence and the lack of outrage from the catholic church sent a bigger message than any directive from the church could have.

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Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:44 pm
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Why would you think that teh church holds a moral authority in anything?


Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:51 pm
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jb007 wrote:
bABA, I'm not saying every single catholic priest did it. But they are culpable for not standing up for the victims. What I am saying is the church and the evangelicals lost that moral authority to judge people when they all remained silent during that scandal. The silence and the lack of outrage from the catholic church sent a bigger message than any directive from the church could have.


The church hding something does not mean people have remained generally silent about it, even in the community itself? Should they walk out on their faith due to one thing (as big as it might be)?

We as complete communities know thigns go wrong within us as well. Our govts try covering it up, half of us dont agree to it but how many of us get up to the point where our voice can actually be heard!?!? I'm not justifying, i'm merely saying how things are.

But you really don't think your first statement reflects that you're generalizing a certain behavior for an entire community?


Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:52 pm
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@ Krem: I don't. Personally I believe organized religion is the biggest problem facing the world.

@ bABA, generalization works in this case because though not everybody did it, all were guilty of moral bankruptcy and that is unacceptable when you are in the business of morality.

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Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:57 pm
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jb - then how can the church "lose" moral authority if it doesn't have any to begin with?


Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:01 pm
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jb007 wrote:
@ Krem: I don't. Personally I believe organized religion is the biggest problem facing the world.

@ bABA, generalization works in this case because though not everybody did it, all were guilty of moral bankruptcy and that is unacceptable when you are in the business of morality.


All are guilty because of 1 issue?? I know its a pretty big issue but you can't condemn each and everyone of them. Just because one may not be in a position yet to do something about it does not mean they leave the institution completely.


Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:06 pm
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Krem wrote:
jb - then how can the church "lose" moral authority if it doesn't have any to begin with?


That is true :wink:

bABA wrote:
All are guilty because of 1 issue?? I know its a pretty big issue but you can't condemn each and everyone of them. Just because one may not be in a position yet to do something about it does not mean they leave the institution completely.


Nobody had to leave the church/Institution. All they had to was condemn the vile acts and throw the pedophiles out, which they did not.

Anyway the evangelicals are the just the opposite of what Jesus was. Jesus was humble and loved everybody.

His so called fanatical followers are arrogant, intolerant and in almost all cases absolutely clueless to the teachings of the bible.

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Last edited by jb007 on Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:06 pm
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bABA wrote:

While that point is fine, there is a mistake here.

Priests may cover things up, just like my mom will condemn the person who hurts another but will protect me even though she knows something is wrong but i'm still her son and she loves me. But that doesn't mean she encourages it, believes in it or anything like that. I do not think that the catholic "central command" issues orders or OKAYs for alter boy molestations. Its viewed as wrong, its even condemned but when the event takes place, they do try to cover it to save face. That isn't right but theres a fine difference here.


It's a crime, Baba. Molesting children is a crime. If you cover it up, you are part of a conspiracy and can be found just as guilty. High ranking important people in the Catholic Church committed crimes.

Suppose it was the Boy Scouts or a boarding school that allowed these things to happen and then covered it up. Would you agree to that, or is there a double standard for churches?

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Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:11 pm
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Mike Ventrella wrote:
bABA wrote:

While that point is fine, there is a mistake here.

Priests may cover things up, just like my mom will condemn the person who hurts another but will protect me even though she knows something is wrong but i'm still her son and she loves me. But that doesn't mean she encourages it, believes in it or anything like that. I do not think that the catholic "central command" issues orders or OKAYs for alter boy molestations. Its viewed as wrong, its even condemned but when the event takes place, they do try to cover it to save face. That isn't right but theres a fine difference here.


It's a crime, Baba. Molesting children is a crime. If you cover it up, you are part of a conspiracy and can be found just as guilty. High ranking important people in the Catholic Church committed crimes.

Suppose it was the Boy Scouts or a boarding school that allowed these things to happen and then covered it up. Would you agree to that, or is there a double standard for churches?


I know its a crime Mike. I'm not arguing any of that! But all everyone part of the catholic church took a little oath in covering this thing up!! high rankers did, yes. Should i blame you for my utter opposition for whats going on in Iraq?


Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:43 pm
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Mike Ventrella wrote:
bABA wrote:

While that point is fine, there is a mistake here.

Priests may cover things up, just like my mom will condemn the person who hurts another but will protect me even though she knows something is wrong but i'm still her son and she loves me. But that doesn't mean she encourages it, believes in it or anything like that. I do not think that the catholic "central command" issues orders or OKAYs for alter boy molestations. Its viewed as wrong, its even condemned but when the event takes place, they do try to cover it to save face. That isn't right but theres a fine difference here.


It's a crime, Baba. Molesting children is a crime. If you cover it up, you are part of a conspiracy and can be found just as guilty. High ranking important people in the Catholic Church committed crimes.

Suppose it was the Boy Scouts or a boarding school that allowed these things to happen and then covered it up. Would you agree to that, or is there a double standard for churches?


And there is no double standard here. Covering up deserves a punishment. Just like it would be in a boarding school. Thats not even what i'm trying to say here. People are trying to compare a lesbian couple marrying in a hall with priests molesting kids in the same hall as a double standard issue. I think thats unfair. The catholic church is against both acts. As far as its concerned, both are crime. and it acknowledges it. If they tried covering up a gay marriage, and it was considered wrong by the general public in that area, THAT would be a fair comparison .. not this piece of generalization!


Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:46 pm
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