indeed.

I think a majority of us do keep it pretty civil and rational, Rod. I would've considered Sam among that crowd until that post of his.

Unless it was a joke of some sort.

So young people are the uneducated, misinformed ones casting votes for Obama because of the "hip" factor...

And you're the educated, rational one, spouting misinformation about Oprah donating to Obama's campaign, and stealing "iPhone" talking points from the same media you're deriding for being unfair to Clinton.

I wasn't going to dignify that pathetic smear on Obama, but I'm glad to see others have seen through it for what it is. It's one thing to criticize a candidate for legitimate policy issues, or even character issues when warranted, but some of this stuff is just getting sad.

Yikes, if rod is upset, then I def crossed the line somewhere. But I thought it was kinda funny. That's why I posted it. It was emailed to me by my cousin. I don't have the full story nor a link.

I do get tired of the Hillary bashing here, so I thought a shot at Obama was fair game. Seriosuly, does the context of this picture matter though? I do lose respect for Obama if he publicly rebelled to put his hand over his heart. Frankly, it's rude. It's like going to a Catholic mass and refusing to kneel when the rest of the congregation does because one is not a Catholic. You do it out of respect. The presidential candidate should not be let off the hook.

If it's true. But we've provided links and arguments that it isn't.

Don't fall for these kinds of dirty tricks please or pass them along.

I understand what you mean about the Hillary bashing. No offense, for the part I contributed.

As for the picture, the crucial distinction is that it was taken during the Anthem and not the Pledge. Many patriotic Americans sing the Anthem without raising their hands.

For the record, yeah I agree that no hand over the heart during singing of national anthem is not a big deal. But he should have noticed that the other candidates were doing it and prob should have followed suit. oy vey.

Actually, Groucho....the link kypade posted proves there's nothing factually inaccurate with Sam's post.

I think it's a cheap shot to use that to question someone's ability to lead that nation and that's what my problem with it is, even if I have seen plenty of equally cheap shots towards Hillary around here...

Except the caps lock part about not saying or putting his hand over his heart during the pledge. This happened during the Anthem. There's a huge difference. You'll also notice he's the only one that looks to be singing along at some point and that, being at the head of the line, he doesn't ever turn around to look at Hilary or whoever. There's simply nothing weird about standing respectfully during the singing of the national anthem without this arbitrary hand placement.

who the fuck cares if a person puts his hand on his chest or not. I dont like this xenophobic and patriotic behavior at all

well prior to switching over to "pledge" it clearly states that they are all standing during the national anthem, so i give it the benefit of the doubt

Other than that I agree with everything you said. Of course this is a perfect opportunity to ask people on both sides to maybe try not to fall into this silly attacks over non-issues? As I said this has been done to Hillary again and again. Take Florida. She was highly criticized for using the victory there in her favor. People pretended Obama would have never done the same. That it didn't matter to him. But, among other things, he was the only candidate to run ads in the state. So, hmm...

Ultimately what happens on KJ will not make a difference in the election but I'd still remind people that this kind of sillyness can't do the candidates any good. People forget that there are people out there who are still undecided. Or like both. I don't hold this particular thing against Hillary. I don't hold some of the attacks against Hillary against Obama. But not everyone might feel the same way. You shouldn't have to remind yourself that what lunatic supporters and the candidates themselves do are separate. Something to keep in mind...

Fuckin' A!

Bush for four more years! Now there's a guy who salutes the flag!

fair game when people actually talk about an issue. Whether you agree or not, debating over a person's policies on war, education, immigration are all important. saluting your flag and insisting and forcing others you should show love for your country the way you'd desire it .... NOT!

And that's IF we can judge anything by a single snap-shot. Which we can't. And only Richardson has his mouth open. Does that mean that Hillary and Obama both REFUSE and publically OBJECT to saying the pledge or singing the anthem. Of course not. They are all looking in completely different directions, which probably means that whatever they're doing hasn't even started yet.

This whole thing is just stupid. It's a low-life smear based on nothing.

At Mass non-Catholics do not kneel. They usually sit calmly in the pews and nobody there expects them to kneel. Likewise, they do not partake in the Eucharist.

I actually hope he becomes president. That way, over the next 4 years, I get to laugh at all of you assholes complaining about him.

Ah, I missed that link before. Still, can't blame me for questioning something without a source.

Note that they were all facing toward the singer (apparently) and that he is farthest to the left, unable to see the others.

He ran ads on national TV, which meant that people in Florida may have seen them too. Not the same thing, really. He didn't run any ads in Florida at all.

DING DING DING

We have (two) winners!

I thought you said at some point that you were going to start contributing substantively to threads. What happened?

I'm throwing a huge party on Bush's last day of office. Everyone is invited

Although...the party will probably be a very, very non-enjoyable one if it's, you know, McCain taking his place.

Go attend the Inauguration!

For Samnasty

As usual Clinton tries to change her opinion around often to appease mass principles

Umm, even if it was true I wouldn't have a problem with it. I've been to Catholic Mass and not kneeled. I still didn't mind - and respected the right to - of people who did. People don't need to mime rituals that don't resonate with them, even if they respect a space, or what the space stands for. Belief and ritual are very different things. One can believe in what this country stands for and it has nothing to do with the physical act of placing a hand over the heart. One can believe in the Catholic God (though I personally don't) and never physically kneel at the pew.

Yes, dirty tricks, and both of the democratic candidates are way above that. Media is ridiculous nowadays. Go Dems!



Go Dems!