U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment.
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dolcevita
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 U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/05/national/05texas.html?hp&ex=1102222800&en=fee7d63623c38e86&ei=5094&partner=homepage wrote:
Rulings in Texas Capital Cases Try Supreme Court's Patience
In the past year, the Supreme Court has heard three appeals from inmates on death row in Texas, and in each case the prosecutors and the lower courts suffered stinging reversals.
In a case to be argued on Monday, the court appears poised to deliver another rebuke.
Lawyers for a Texas death row inmate, Thomas Miller-El, will appear before the justices for the second time in two years. To legal experts, the Supreme Court's decision to hear his case yet again is a sign of its growing impatience with two of the courts that handle death penalty cases from Texas: its highest criminal court, the Court of Criminal Appeals, and the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, in New Orleans.
Perhaps as telling is the exasperated language in decisions this year from a Supreme Court that includes no categorical opponent of the death penalty. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote in June that the Fifth Circuit was "paying lip service to principles" of appellate law in issuing death penalty rulings with "no foundation in the decisions of this court."...
The actions of the two appeals courts that hear capital cases from Texas help explain why the state leads the nation in executions, with 336 since 1976, when the death penalty was reinstated, more than the next five states combined.
In the Miller-El case, appellate lawyers and legal scholars are buzzing over what they say is the insolence of the Fifth Circuit.
In an 8-to-1 decision last year, the Supreme Court instructed the appeals court to rethink its "dismissive and strained interpretation" of the proof in the case, and to consider more seriously the substantial evidence suggesting that prosecutors had systematically excluded blacks from Mr. Miller-El's jury. Prosecutors used peremptory strikes to eliminate 10 out of 11 eligible black jurors, and they twice used a local procedure called a jury shuffle to move blacks lower on the list of potential jurors, the decision said. The jury ultimately selected, which had one black member, convicted Mr. Miller-El, a black man who is now 53, of killing a clerk at a Holiday Inn in Dallas in 1985.
Instead of considering much of the evidence recited by the Supreme Court majority, the appeals court engaged in something akin to plagiarism. In February, it again rejected Mr. Miller-El's claims, in a decision that reproduced, virtually verbatim and without attribution, several paragraphs from the sole dissenting opinion in last year's Supreme Court decision, written by Justice Clarence Thomas.
"The Fifth Circuit just went out of its way to defy the Supreme Court on this," said John J. Gibbons, a former chief judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, in Philadelphia, who joined a brief supporting Mr. Miller-El. "The idea that the system can tolerate open defiance by an inferior court just cannot stand."
The Supreme Court agrees to hear only about 80 cases each year. It seldom accepts cases to correct errors in the lower courts and concentrates instead on resolving conflicts among appeals courts and announcing broad legal principles. But in recent years the court has often found itself fixing problems in specific Texas death penalty cases. Over the last decade, it has ruled against prosecutors in all six appeals brought by inmates on death row in Texas.
The cases all involved challenges to the fairness of the procedures used to convict and sentence the defendants rather than arguments about their innocence.
The two appeals courts handle an enormous number of capital cases and grant relief in very few. Between 1995 and 2000, the Court of Criminal Appeals heard direct appeals in 270 death sentences and reversed eight times, according to a report by the Texas Defender Service, a nonprofit law firm that represents death row inmates. The reversal rate - 3 percent - is the lowest of any state. California, which has a much larger death row, at 635, has executed only 10 people since 1976, to Texas's 336.
By contrast, a comprehensive study of almost 6,000 death sentences across the nation over the 20 years ended in 1995 found a 68 percent chance they would be overturned by a state or federal court.
The Fifth Circuit also reviews Texas death sentences when inmates file writs of habeas corpus - challenges to unlawful detentions. The court has 50 or 60 capital cases pending at any given time, a spokesman said. But in recent years it has very seldom ruled in favor of prisoners on death row...
Most of these retrials, as the article states, are about the original mishandling of trials. This kind of discussion os the very reason why Death Penalty should just be illegal. 68% turn-around? How do people sleep at night knowing this??? I have yet to hear a single convincing arguement for capital punishment in my life. I can't really say this about almost any other issue. I might disagree with most of what I hear, but I have heard decent arguements. As far as death penalty, there is seriously no excuse.
I'm surprised at how high the number is, even though I knew Texas had the highest rate by far. Everyone should check out the link though, because it was a four page article, and I didn't want to post the entire thing.
What the hell is up with Clarence Thomas? He has to be number one on my list of people that shouldn't be sittingin a federal chair right now. Above the fact that I can't stand his personal positions, I also realize as the sole dissention, that he is also perfectly willing to sign away the authority of the federal courts (his own position) just because he is so idealogically regressive. Even the other "conservative" judges said, "The idea that the system can tolerate open defiance by an inferior court just cannot stand." Ugh. He's pretty young too, so is sadly not going anywhere.
I think I remeber reading an article in the Globe a few years ago that stated almost every (if not every, I forget) country in Europe has already rejected Capital Punishment, and I'm still trying to figure out why we haven't. There is no indication of it lowering crime rates, there is no indication of any social comfort, and there isn't even proof it lowers "costs" vs. life sentences. I wonder what the stats are on other states in the US? I have a feeling its not all that high anywhere else, but I don't know at all so won't jump to that assumption yet.
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| Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:30 pm |
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lovemerox
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. dolcevita wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/05/national/05texas.html?hp&ex=1102222800&en=fee7d63623c38e86&ei=5094&partner=homepage wrote:
Rulings in Texas Capital Cases Try Supreme Court's Patience
In the past year, the Supreme Court has heard three appeals from inmates on death row in Texas, and in each case the prosecutors and the lower courts suffered stinging reversals.
In a case to be argued on Monday, the court appears poised to deliver another rebuke.
Lawyers for a Texas death row inmate, Thomas Miller-El, will appear before the justices for the second time in two years. To legal experts, the Supreme Court's decision to hear his case yet again is a sign of its growing impatience with two of the courts that handle death penalty cases from Texas: its highest criminal court, the Court of Criminal Appeals, and the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, in New Orleans.
Perhaps as telling is the exasperated language in decisions this year from a Supreme Court that includes no categorical opponent of the death penalty. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote in June that the Fifth Circuit was "paying lip service to principles" of appellate law in issuing death penalty rulings with "no foundation in the decisions of this court."...
The actions of the two appeals courts that hear capital cases from Texas help explain why the state leads the nation in executions, with 336 since 1976, when the death penalty was reinstated, more than the next five states combined.
In the Miller-El case, appellate lawyers and legal scholars are buzzing over what they say is the insolence of the Fifth Circuit.
In an 8-to-1 decision last year, the Supreme Court instructed the appeals court to rethink its "dismissive and strained interpretation" of the proof in the case, and to consider more seriously the substantial evidence suggesting that prosecutors had systematically excluded blacks from Mr. Miller-El's jury. Prosecutors used peremptory strikes to eliminate 10 out of 11 eligible black jurors, and they twice used a local procedure called a jury shuffle to move blacks lower on the list of potential jurors, the decision said. The jury ultimately selected, which had one black member, convicted Mr. Miller-El, a black man who is now 53, of killing a clerk at a Holiday Inn in Dallas in 1985.
Instead of considering much of the evidence recited by the Supreme Court majority, the appeals court engaged in something akin to plagiarism. In February, it again rejected Mr. Miller-El's claims, in a decision that reproduced, virtually verbatim and without attribution, several paragraphs from the sole dissenting opinion in last year's Supreme Court decision, written by Justice Clarence Thomas.
"The Fifth Circuit just went out of its way to defy the Supreme Court on this," said John J. Gibbons, a former chief judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, in Philadelphia, who joined a brief supporting Mr. Miller-El. "The idea that the system can tolerate open defiance by an inferior court just cannot stand."
The Supreme Court agrees to hear only about 80 cases each year. It seldom accepts cases to correct errors in the lower courts and concentrates instead on resolving conflicts among appeals courts and announcing broad legal principles. But in recent years the court has often found itself fixing problems in specific Texas death penalty cases. Over the last decade, it has ruled against prosecutors in all six appeals brought by inmates on death row in Texas.
The cases all involved challenges to the fairness of the procedures used to convict and sentence the defendants rather than arguments about their innocence.
The two appeals courts handle an enormous number of capital cases and grant relief in very few. Between 1995 and 2000, the Court of Criminal Appeals heard direct appeals in 270 death sentences and reversed eight times, according to a report by the Texas Defender Service, a nonprofit law firm that represents death row inmates. The reversal rate - 3 percent - is the lowest of any state. California, which has a much larger death row, at 635, has executed only 10 people since 1976, to Texas's 336.
By contrast, a comprehensive study of almost 6,000 death sentences across the nation over the 20 years ended in 1995 found a 68 percent chance they would be overturned by a state or federal court.
The Fifth Circuit also reviews Texas death sentences when inmates file writs of habeas corpus - challenges to unlawful detentions. The court has 50 or 60 capital cases pending at any given time, a spokesman said. But in recent years it has very seldom ruled in favor of prisoners on death row...
Most of these retrials, as the article states, are about the original mishandling of trials. This kind of discussion os the very reason why Death Penalty should just be illegal. 68% turn-around? How do people sleep at night knowing this??? I have yet to hear a single convincing arguement for capital punishment in my life. I can't really say this about almost any other issue. I might disagree with most of what I hear, but I have heard decent arguements. As far as death penalty, there is seriously no excuse. I'm surprised at how high the number is, even though I knew Texas had the highest rate by far. Everyone should check out the link though, because it was a four page article, and I didn't want to post the entire thing. What the hell is up with Clarence Thomas? He has to be number one on my list of people that shouldn't be sittingin a federal chair right now. Above the fact that I can't stand his personal positions, I also realize as the sole dissention, that he is also perfectly willing to sign away the authority of the federal courts (his own position) just because he is so idealogically regressive. Even the other "conservative" judges said, "The idea that the system can tolerate open defiance by an inferior court just cannot stand." Ugh. He's pretty young too, so is sadly not going anywhere. I think I remeber reading an article in the Globe a few years ago that stated almost every (if not every, I forget) country in Europe has already rejected Capital Punishment, and I'm still trying to figure out why we haven't. There is no indication of it lowering crime rates, there is no indication of any social comfort, and there isn't even proof it lowers "costs" vs. life sentences. I wonder what the stats are on other states in the US? I have a feeling its not all that high anywhere else, but I don't know at all so won't jump to that assumption yet. I agree dolce, with so many mishaps ect...in the system I don't see how one can support it. The death penalty should be outlawed immediatly, however we live in a vengful world...so I do not see it happening.
Also, a minority or poor person is more likely to recieve the death penalty than your averge middle/upper class person. Now there's justice!  _________________
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| Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:04 pm |
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Maximus
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. lovemerox wrote: I agree dolce, with so many mishaps ect...in the system I don't see how one can support it. The death penalty should be outlawed immediatly, however we live in a vengful world...so I do not see it happening. Also, a minority or poor person is more likely to recieve the death penalty than your averge middle/upper class person. Now there's justice! No doubt there are issues within the legal system, but I will never understand why people think that another human deserves life after they murdered another person. I think a person who comits such an inhumane crime doesn't deserve the human right to life. And ofcourse rich people are less likely to recieve the death penalty. They can afford better laywers. Its capitolism. If you think everyone should be limited to certian amounts of money, move to a communist nation. Thats the point of America - to live in a free place where you are allowed to make as much money as you want and do whatever you legally want to do with it. But anyway, I am rambling on. My point is, I guess I just don't understand why people roll their eyes when they finally understand what capitolism is, and how 'unfair it is'. Whatever. I don't want to derail the thread.
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| Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:13 pm |
 
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lovemerox
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: I agree dolce, with so many mishaps ect...in the system I don't see how one can support it. The death penalty should be outlawed immediatly, however we live in a vengful world...so I do not see it happening. Also, a minority or poor person is more likely to recieve the death penalty than your averge middle/upper class person. Now there's justice! No doubt there are issues within the legal system, but I will never understand why people think that another human deserves life after they murdered another person. I think a person who comits such an inhumane crime doesn't deserve the human right to life. And ofcourse rich people are less likely to recieve the death penalty. They can afford better laywers. Its capitolism. If you think everyone should be limited to certian amounts of money, move to a communist nation. Thats the point of America - to live in a free place where you are allowed to make as much money as you want and do whatever you legally want to do with it. But anyway, I am rambling on. My point is, I guess I just don't understand why people roll their eyes when they finally understand what capitolism is, and how 'unfair it is'. Whatever. I don't want to derail the thread. But who are YOU to choose who does or dosen't have the right to live? Your human, just like everyone else. Seconldy where does the death stop? Should rapists me mudered? Robbers? People in War?....ect.... _________________
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| Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:33 pm |
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Maximus
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: I agree dolce, with so many mishaps ect...in the system I don't see how one can support it. The death penalty should be outlawed immediatly, however we live in a vengful world...so I do not see it happening. Also, a minority or poor person is more likely to recieve the death penalty than your averge middle/upper class person. Now there's justice! No doubt there are issues within the legal system, but I will never understand why people think that another human deserves life after they murdered another person. I think a person who comits such an inhumane crime doesn't deserve the human right to life. And ofcourse rich people are less likely to recieve the death penalty. They can afford better laywers. Its capitolism. If you think everyone should be limited to certian amounts of money, move to a communist nation. Thats the point of America - to live in a free place where you are allowed to make as much money as you want and do whatever you legally want to do with it. But anyway, I am rambling on. My point is, I guess I just don't understand why people roll their eyes when they finally understand what capitolism is, and how 'unfair it is'. Whatever. I don't want to derail the thread. But who are YOU to choose who does or dosen't have the right to live? Your human, just like everyone else. Seconldy where does the death stop? Should rapists me mudered? Robbers? People in War?....ect.... I don't think the death penalty is murder. Not one bit. I think the electric chair is overally harsh, yes, but not lethal injection. Besides, its probably better than living in prison for life.... It IS up to me as a citizen of this country to chose. Thats why we have juries. The people decide who deserves it. Obviously someone who accidentally hit someone in a car, and stopped, shouldn't be put to death, but I think a MURDERER should be. As illogical as it sounds, I feel its the most humane thing to do.
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| Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:57 pm |
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lovemerox
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: I agree dolce, with so many mishaps ect...in the system I don't see how one can support it. The death penalty should be outlawed immediatly, however we live in a vengful world...so I do not see it happening. Also, a minority or poor person is more likely to recieve the death penalty than your averge middle/upper class person. Now there's justice! No doubt there are issues within the legal system, but I will never understand why people think that another human deserves life after they murdered another person. I think a person who comits such an inhumane crime doesn't deserve the human right to life. And ofcourse rich people are less likely to recieve the death penalty. They can afford better laywers. Its capitolism. If you think everyone should be limited to certian amounts of money, move to a communist nation. Thats the point of America - to live in a free place where you are allowed to make as much money as you want and do whatever you legally want to do with it. But anyway, I am rambling on. My point is, I guess I just don't understand why people roll their eyes when they finally understand what capitolism is, and how 'unfair it is'. Whatever. I don't want to derail the thread. But who are YOU to choose who does or dosen't have the right to live? Your human, just like everyone else. Seconldy where does the death stop? Should rapists me mudered? Robbers? People in War?....ect.... I don't think the death penalty is murder. Not one bit. I think the electric chair is overally harsh, yes, but not lethal injection. Besides, its probably better than living in prison for life.... It IS up to me as a citizen of this country to chose. Thats why we have juries. The people decide who deserves it. Obviously someone who accidentally hit someone in a car, and stopped, shouldn't be put to death, but I think a MURDERER should be. As illogical as it sounds, I feel its the most humane thing to do. So lets see...murder to stop murder...theres an idea!, Its proven fact that it does not deter crime, so whats the point? It's sickening and harsh. You SHOULDN'T have the right to take a human breathing life.
It always amazes me that most republicans can be "pro life" and "pro death" at the same time _________________
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| Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:04 pm |
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Beeblebrox
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. zach wrote: I think a person who comits such an inhumane crime doesn't deserve the human right to life. No offense, but who cares what you think? What if I thought gays didn't deserve the human right to life? My personal sense of justice is irrelevent. So is yours. What matters is what's fair and just under our Constitution. Quote: And ofcourse rich people are less likely to recieve the death penalty. They can afford better laywers. Its capitolism. Ah, here's where the right-wingers love to spit on the Constitution and everything it stands for. Our legal system is designed so that exactly what you're describing DOESN'T happen. We are supposed to have a system that does NOT favor the wealthy or connected, so that ANY citizen can get a fair and just trial. According to the fourteenth amendment, we are all to have equal protection under the law.
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| Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:39 pm |
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Beeblebrox
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. zach wrote: As illogical as it sounds, I feel its the most humane thing to do. Let's hope you're never faslely accused and convicted of murder. I wonder if your tune would change then.
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| Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:40 pm |
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rusty
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. Beeblebrox wrote: No offense, but who cares what you think? What if I thought gays didn't deserve the human right to life? My personal sense of justice is irrelevent. So is yours.
Wow! What a statement there Stalin! It's a friggin discussion.
I think the death penalty should be reserved for only most hanus acts. A small time murderer deserves prison time but a rapist (especially a child rapists) does not deserve any sympathy or any of the tax payers money to support his life in prison.
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| Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:32 pm |
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Maximus
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. rusty wrote: Beeblebrox wrote: No offense, but who cares what you think? What if I thought gays didn't deserve the human right to life? My personal sense of justice is irrelevent. So is yours.
Wow! What a statement there Stalin! It's a friggin discussion. Took the words right out of my mouth
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| Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:50 pm |
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lovemerox
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. rusty wrote: Beeblebrox wrote: No offense, but who cares what you think? What if I thought gays didn't deserve the human right to life? My personal sense of justice is irrelevent. So is yours.
Wow! What a statement there Stalin! It's a friggin discussion. I think the death penalty should be reserved for only most hanus acts. A small time murderer deserves prison time but a rapist (especially a child rapists) does not deserve any sympathy or any of the tax payers money to support his life in prison. It's more expensive to kill them than it is to keep them in jail :wink: _________________
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| Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:55 pm |
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Maximus
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. Beeblebrox wrote: zach wrote: I think a person who comits such an inhumane crime doesn't deserve the human right to life. No offense, but who cares what you think? What if I thought gays didn't deserve the human right to life? My personal sense of justice is irrelevent. So is yours. What matters is what's fair and just under our Constitution. Quote: And ofcourse rich people are less likely to recieve the death penalty. They can afford better laywers. Its capitolism. Ah, here's where the right-wingers love to spit on the Constitution and everything it stands for. Our legal system is designed so that exactly what you're describing DOESN'T happen. We are supposed to have a system that does NOT favor the wealthy or connected, so that ANY citizen can get a fair and just trial. According to the fourteenth amendment, we are all to have equal protection under the law. Well, excuse me for voicing my opinion. I might not be some college graduate with a vocab of dolce, I might not be as informed as Krem, but I sure can speak my mind. And I hate to break it to you, but there will never be equal justice in this world. Because all systems of justice are founded upon people. People are not perfect. People are not equal. You characterize conservatives as hateful, dispicable, peace-loathing dirtbags. Its pretty nasty. Your distateful remarks sicken me so much I can't even think. You act like we, people very much like you, are out for an unfair and unjust world. There are Republicans who are close minded assholes. And there are liberals who are too. Like I said, we are all imperfect. But for godsake man, we are both on the same side. There is no need to be so nasty. I might not be an elequent politician, I might sound like an idiot to you, but all I want to say is this: you can be an asshole, or you can be a nice guy. Why don't you cool it, and have a decent discussion with other people. We might be different, but like I said before, we are both fighting for the same things. You might not realize it, but little political parties and the like don't matter in the long run. Its about uniting and betterign ourselves. I know I am off topic, but I am sorry. You have gotten so rude, and you have ruined the entire point of debate. When our founding fathers signed the constitution, they did not want us to end up like this, fighting over petty things like left or right, they wanted us to change the world for the better. A nice discussion between two people might be a start. Now, please ignore the fact that I am not the greatest writer ever, and this little rant might be corney as ever, but just think about it: can we get along without the hostility you shove down people's throat? (And-if you feel I am overly hostile, please feel free to tell me - there is no need to piss eachother off)
Last edited by Maximus on Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:01 am |
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lovemerox
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. zach wrote: Beeblebrox wrote: zach wrote: I think a person who comits such an inhumane crime doesn't deserve the human right to life. No offense, but who cares what you think? What if I thought gays didn't deserve the human right to life? My personal sense of justice is irrelevent. So is yours. What matters is what's fair and just under our Constitution. Quote: And ofcourse rich people are less likely to recieve the death penalty. They can afford better laywers. Its capitolism. Ah, here's where the right-wingers love to spit on the Constitution and everything it stands for. Our legal system is designed so that exactly what you're describing DOESN'T happen. We are supposed to have a system that does NOT favor the wealthy or connected, so that ANY citizen can get a fair and just trial. According to the fourteenth amendment, we are all to have equal protection under the law. Well, excuse me for voicing my opinion. I might not be some college graduate with a vocab of dolce, I might not be as informed as Krem, but I sure can speak my mind. And I hate to break it to you, but there will never be equal justice in this world. Because all systems of justice are founded upon people. People are not perfect. People are not equal. You characterize conservatives as hateful, dispicable, peace-loathing dirtbags. Its pretty nasty. Your distateful remarks sicken me so much I can't even think. You act like we, people very much like you, are out for an unfair and unjust world. There are Republicans who are close minded assholes. And there are liberals who are too. Like I said, we are all imperfect. But for godsake man, we are both on the same side. There is no need to be so nasty. I might not be an elequent politician, I might sound like an idiot to you, but all I want to say is this: you can be an asshole, or you can be a nice guy. Why don't you cool it, and have a decent discussion with other people. We might be different, but like I said before, we are both fighting for the same things. You might not realize it, but little political parties and the like don't matter in the long run. Its about uniting and betterign ourselves. I know I am off topic, but I am sorry. You have gotten so rude, and you have ruined the entire point of debate. When our founding fathers signed the constitution, they did not want us to end up like this, fighting over petty things like left or right, they wanted us to change the world for the better. A nice discussion between two people might be a start. Now, please ignore the fact that I am not the greatest writer ever, but just think about it: can we get along without the hostility you shove down people's throat? Lets continue then....shall we? :wink: _________________
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:03 am |
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lovemerox
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. zach wrote: Beeblebrox wrote: zach wrote: I think a person who comits such an inhumane crime doesn't deserve the human right to life. No offense, but who cares what you think? What if I thought gays didn't deserve the human right to life? My personal sense of justice is irrelevent. So is yours. What matters is what's fair and just under our Constitution. Quote: And ofcourse rich people are less likely to recieve the death penalty. They can afford better laywers. Its capitolism. Ah, here's where the right-wingers love to spit on the Constitution and everything it stands for. Our legal system is designed so that exactly what you're describing DOESN'T happen. We are supposed to have a system that does NOT favor the wealthy or connected, so that ANY citizen can get a fair and just trial. According to the fourteenth amendment, we are all to have equal protection under the law. Well, excuse me for voicing my opinion. I might not be some college graduate with a vocab of dolce, I might not be as informed as Krem, but I sure can speak my mind. And I hate to break it to you, but there will never be equal justice in this world. Because all systems of justice are founded upon people. People are not perfect. People are not equal. You characterize conservatives as hateful, dispicable, peace-loathing dirtbags. Its pretty nasty. Your distateful remarks sicken me so much I can't even think. You act like we, people very much like you, are out for an unfair and unjust world. There are Republicans who are close minded assholes. And there are liberals who are too. Like I said, we are all imperfect. But for godsake man, we are both on the same side. There is no need to be so nasty. I might not be an elequent politician, I might sound like an idiot to you, but all I want to say is this: you can be an asshole, or you can be a nice guy. Why don't you cool it, and have a decent discussion with other people. We might be different, but like I said before, we are both fighting for the same things. You might not realize it, but little political parties and the like don't matter in the long run. Its about uniting and betterign ourselves. I know I am off topic, but I am sorry. You have gotten so rude, and you have ruined the entire point of debate. When our founding fathers signed the constitution, they did not want us to end up like this, fighting over petty things like left or right, they wanted us to change the world for the better. A nice discussion between two people might be a start. Now, please ignore the fact that I am not the greatest writer ever, and this little rant might be corney as ever, but just think about it: can we get along without the hostility you shove down people's throat? (And-if you feel I am overly hostile, please feel free to tell me - there is no need to piss eachother off) Secondly, he was just voicing his opinion, he was never really disrecptful to you  _________________
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:04 am |
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Maximus
Hot Fuss
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:46 am
Posts: 8427
Location: floridaaa
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: Beeblebrox wrote: zach wrote: I think a person who comits such an inhumane crime doesn't deserve the human right to life. No offense, but who cares what you think? What if I thought gays didn't deserve the human right to life? My personal sense of justice is irrelevent. So is yours. What matters is what's fair and just under our Constitution. Quote: And ofcourse rich people are less likely to recieve the death penalty. They can afford better laywers. Its capitolism. Ah, here's where the right-wingers love to spit on the Constitution and everything it stands for. Our legal system is designed so that exactly what you're describing DOESN'T happen. We are supposed to have a system that does NOT favor the wealthy or connected, so that ANY citizen can get a fair and just trial. According to the fourteenth amendment, we are all to have equal protection under the law. Well, excuse me for voicing my opinion. I might not be some college graduate with a vocab of dolce, I might not be as informed as Krem, but I sure can speak my mind. And I hate to break it to you, but there will never be equal justice in this world. Because all systems of justice are founded upon people. People are not perfect. People are not equal. You characterize conservatives as hateful, dispicable, peace-loathing dirtbags. Its pretty nasty. Your distateful remarks sicken me so much I can't even think. You act like we, people very much like you, are out for an unfair and unjust world. There are Republicans who are close minded assholes. And there are liberals who are too. Like I said, we are all imperfect. But for godsake man, we are both on the same side. There is no need to be so nasty. I might not be an elequent politician, I might sound like an idiot to you, but all I want to say is this: you can be an asshole, or you can be a nice guy. Why don't you cool it, and have a decent discussion with other people. We might be different, but like I said before, we are both fighting for the same things. You might not realize it, but little political parties and the like don't matter in the long run. Its about uniting and betterign ourselves. I know I am off topic, but I am sorry. You have gotten so rude, and you have ruined the entire point of debate. When our founding fathers signed the constitution, they did not want us to end up like this, fighting over petty things like left or right, they wanted us to change the world for the better. A nice discussion between two people might be a start. Now, please ignore the fact that I am not the greatest writer ever, but just think about it: can we get along without the hostility you shove down people's throat? Lets continue then....shall we? :wink: Okay then. Now that I made an ass out myself with some corney little rant... 
thankgod dolce, krem, mike and the like aren't here to make me feel stupid. 
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:04 am |
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lovemerox
Forum General
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:16 pm
Posts: 6499
Location: Down along the dixie line
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: Beeblebrox wrote: zach wrote: I think a person who comits such an inhumane crime doesn't deserve the human right to life. No offense, but who cares what you think? What if I thought gays didn't deserve the human right to life? My personal sense of justice is irrelevent. So is yours. What matters is what's fair and just under our Constitution. Quote: And ofcourse rich people are less likely to recieve the death penalty. They can afford better laywers. Its capitolism. Ah, here's where the right-wingers love to spit on the Constitution and everything it stands for. Our legal system is designed so that exactly what you're describing DOESN'T happen. We are supposed to have a system that does NOT favor the wealthy or connected, so that ANY citizen can get a fair and just trial. According to the fourteenth amendment, we are all to have equal protection under the law. Well, excuse me for voicing my opinion. I might not be some college graduate with a vocab of dolce, I might not be as informed as Krem, but I sure can speak my mind. And I hate to break it to you, but there will never be equal justice in this world. Because all systems of justice are founded upon people. People are not perfect. People are not equal. You characterize conservatives as hateful, dispicable, peace-loathing dirtbags. Its pretty nasty. Your distateful remarks sicken me so much I can't even think. You act like we, people very much like you, are out for an unfair and unjust world. There are Republicans who are close minded assholes. And there are liberals who are too. Like I said, we are all imperfect. But for godsake man, we are both on the same side. There is no need to be so nasty. I might not be an elequent politician, I might sound like an idiot to you, but all I want to say is this: you can be an asshole, or you can be a nice guy. Why don't you cool it, and have a decent discussion with other people. We might be different, but like I said before, we are both fighting for the same things. You might not realize it, but little political parties and the like don't matter in the long run. Its about uniting and betterign ourselves. I know I am off topic, but I am sorry. You have gotten so rude, and you have ruined the entire point of debate. When our founding fathers signed the constitution, they did not want us to end up like this, fighting over petty things like left or right, they wanted us to change the world for the better. A nice discussion between two people might be a start. Now, please ignore the fact that I am not the greatest writer ever, but just think about it: can we get along without the hostility you shove down people's throat? Lets continue then....shall we? :wink: Okay then. Now that I made an ass out myself with some corney little rant... thankgod dolce, krem, mike and the like aren't here to make me feel stupid. You didnt look stupid _________________
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:38 am |
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Maximus
Hot Fuss
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:46 am
Posts: 8427
Location: floridaaa
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Re: U.S. Federal at Odds with Texas over Capital Punishment. lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: Beeblebrox wrote: zach wrote: I think a person who comits such an inhumane crime doesn't deserve the human right to life. No offense, but who cares what you think? What if I thought gays didn't deserve the human right to life? My personal sense of justice is irrelevent. So is yours. What matters is what's fair and just under our Constitution. Quote: And ofcourse rich people are less likely to recieve the death penalty. They can afford better laywers. Its capitolism. Ah, here's where the right-wingers love to spit on the Constitution and everything it stands for. Our legal system is designed so that exactly what you're describing DOESN'T happen. We are supposed to have a system that does NOT favor the wealthy or connected, so that ANY citizen can get a fair and just trial. According to the fourteenth amendment, we are all to have equal protection under the law. Well, excuse me for voicing my opinion. I might not be some college graduate with a vocab of dolce, I might not be as informed as Krem, but I sure can speak my mind. And I hate to break it to you, but there will never be equal justice in this world. Because all systems of justice are founded upon people. People are not perfect. People are not equal. You characterize conservatives as hateful, dispicable, peace-loathing dirtbags. Its pretty nasty. Your distateful remarks sicken me so much I can't even think. You act like we, people very much like you, are out for an unfair and unjust world. There are Republicans who are close minded assholes. And there are liberals who are too. Like I said, we are all imperfect. But for godsake man, we are both on the same side. There is no need to be so nasty. I might not be an elequent politician, I might sound like an idiot to you, but all I want to say is this: you can be an asshole, or you can be a nice guy. Why don't you cool it, and have a decent discussion with other people. We might be different, but like I said before, we are both fighting for the same things. You might not realize it, but little political parties and the like don't matter in the long run. Its about uniting and betterign ourselves. I know I am off topic, but I am sorry. You have gotten so rude, and you have ruined the entire point of debate. When our founding fathers signed the constitution, they did not want us to end up like this, fighting over petty things like left or right, they wanted us to change the world for the better. A nice discussion between two people might be a start. Now, please ignore the fact that I am not the greatest writer ever, but just think about it: can we get along without the hostility you shove down people's throat? Lets continue then....shall we? :wink: Okay then. Now that I made an ass out myself with some corney little rant... thankgod dolce, krem, mike and the like aren't here to make me feel stupid. You didnt look stupid Yes I did! I am like so blonde. Lol. Its hard for me to put together coherent sentences, much like the president.
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:40 am |
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lovemerox
Forum General
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:16 pm
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^^^So you still want to convince me that the death penalty is ok? :wink:
_________________
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:43 am |
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Maximus
Hot Fuss
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:46 am
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Location: floridaaa
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lovemerox wrote: ^^^So you still want to convince me that the death penalty is ok? :wink: Go there. They have a website for it, so they must know what they are talking about
I would be happy to grace everyone with my words of wisdom in the morning when I wake up.....
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:46 am |
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lovemerox
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Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:16 pm
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Location: Down along the dixie line
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zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: ^^^So you still want to convince me that the death penalty is ok? :wink: Go there. They have a website for it, so they must know what they are talking about I would be happy to grace everyone with my words of wisdom in the morning when I wake up..... Ok, the website is nice, but do you have your OWN opinions on the issuse, your OWN arguments? _________________
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:47 am |
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Maximus
Hot Fuss
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:46 am
Posts: 8427
Location: floridaaa
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lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: ^^^So you still want to convince me that the death penalty is ok? :wink: Go there. They have a website for it, so they must know what they are talking about I would be happy to grace everyone with my words of wisdom in the morning when I wake up..... Ok, the website is nice, but do you have your OWN opinions on the issuse, your OWN arguments? I was just playing! lol, yes, I do... but im tired. And, at night, my brain works slower than normal. I turn into a delexic blond republican. not cool.
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:49 am |
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lovemerox
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Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:16 pm
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Location: Down along the dixie line
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zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: ^^^So you still want to convince me that the death penalty is ok? :wink: Go there. They have a website for it, so they must know what they are talking about I would be happy to grace everyone with my words of wisdom in the morning when I wake up..... Ok, the website is nice, but do you have your OWN opinions on the issuse, your OWN arguments? I was just playing! lol, yes, I do... but im tired. And, at night, my brain works slower than normal. I turn into a delexic blond republican. not cool. By the time i get done with ya hopefully you will change your views and become liberal :wink: _________________
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:59 am |
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Maximus
Hot Fuss
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:46 am
Posts: 8427
Location: floridaaa
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lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: ^^^So you still want to convince me that the death penalty is ok? :wink: Go there. They have a website for it, so they must know what they are talking about I would be happy to grace everyone with my words of wisdom in the morning when I wake up..... Ok, the website is nice, but do you have your OWN opinions on the issuse, your OWN arguments? I was just playing! lol, yes, I do... but im tired. And, at night, my brain works slower than normal. I turn into a delexic blond republican. not cool. By the time i get done with ya hopefully you will change your views and become liberal :wink: That when, like, prep goes out of style. which, will, be, like never!
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:01 am |
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lovemerox
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Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:16 pm
Posts: 6499
Location: Down along the dixie line
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zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: ^^^So you still want to convince me that the death penalty is ok? :wink: Go there. They have a website for it, so they must know what they are talking about I would be happy to grace everyone with my words of wisdom in the morning when I wake up..... Ok, the website is nice, but do you have your OWN opinions on the issuse, your OWN arguments? I was just playing! lol, yes, I do... but im tired. And, at night, my brain works slower than normal. I turn into a delexic blond republican. not cool. By the time i get done with ya hopefully you will change your views and become liberal :wink: That when, like, prep goes out of style. which, will, be, like never! I love shopping _________________
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:02 am |
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Maximus
Hot Fuss
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:46 am
Posts: 8427
Location: floridaaa
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lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: zach wrote: lovemerox wrote: ^^^So you still want to convince me that the death penalty is ok? :wink: Go there. They have a website for it, so they must know what they are talking about I would be happy to grace everyone with my words of wisdom in the morning when I wake up..... Ok, the website is nice, but do you have your OWN opinions on the issuse, your OWN arguments? I was just playing! lol, yes, I do... but im tired. And, at night, my brain works slower than normal. I turn into a delexic blond republican. not cool. By the time i get done with ya hopefully you will change your views and become liberal :wink: That when, like, prep goes out of style. which, will, be, like never! I love shopping omg me too!
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| Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:13 am |
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