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 Zimmerman Trial 
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
Not Guilty? Disappointing.

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Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:53 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
ironmanbarry wrote:
Not Guilty? Disappointing.

It was to be expected, Florida Law is a joke, I personally would have found Zimmerman guilty as all hell, but that's based on the law as i see it. Alaska law is most likely quite similar to Florida's seeing as this state loves its guns, but I don't think we would have allowed Zimmerman to use a law like "stand your ground" to his advantage, thus a guilty verdict.

EDIT

Turns out our Governor just signed a stand your ground bill into law here in Alaska as of June 21 2013, looks like murderers will be getting off here with relative ease now.

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Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:59 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
Groucho wrote:
If anyone is interested in a defense attorney's views, my blog post is here: http://ventrellaquest.wordpress.com/201 ... ur-ground/


:thumbsup:


Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:23 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
Groucho wrote:
If anyone is interested in a defense attorney's views, my blog post is here: http://ventrellaquest.wordpress.com/201 ... ur-ground/


I was seriously disappointed. You showed know real familiarity of the case or the issues involved in Florida law. You wrote:

Quote:
I’m not even sure exactly how the prosecution and the judge allowed Zimmerman to use the “stand your ground” defense.


http://ventrellaquest.wordpress.com/

Mark O'Mara did not invoke SYG as a defense, he used a traditional self-defense argument.

Quote:
George Zimmerman, 29, appeared in court Tuesday and affirmed that he did not want a pre-trial "stand your ground" immunity hearing. His lawyers alleged the prosecution had withheld information ahead of Zimmerman's June trial for second degree murder in the Feb. 26, 2012 shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.


http://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/art ... nd-hearing

Throughout you made false statements such as:

Quote:
If it hadn’t been for Zimmerman’s aggression, there wouldn’t have been a fight and Martin would still be alive. Martin was the one standing his ground.


When the prosecution never provided any evidence that GZ showed any aggression. They didn't provide who started the physical confrontation and conceded that GZ was on the bottom right before the shot was fired. GZ was shouting for 40 secs. for help and at least one eyewitness (John Good) would not provide help only offer to call 911.

Quote:
The bottom line is this: I’m a defense attorney and I can’t figure this verdict out


As a defense attorney, read the witness testimony in Wikipedia and come back and tell us you don't see how they came to that verdict, understanding they had to adhere to Florida law and the following jury instructions.

Quote:
JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE

The killing of a human being is justifiable and lawful if necessarily done while resisting an attempt to murder or commit a felony upon George Zimmerman, or to commit a felony in any dwelling house in which George Zimmerman was at the time of the attempted killing.


http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Rel ... ctions.pdf

My understanding is that the defense has to meet a very low threshold to meet this requirement.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:51 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
nghtvsn wrote:
Thankfully, he didn't have you as his defense attorney. That's a shame. As far as Trayvon standing his ground. There was time when he ran out of Zimmerman's site to just disappear and head home, but he didn't. Why didn't he? What's the motivation to confront the "stalker". A co-worker was telling me that she'd be one of those folks who would confront someone who was following them. Um, it's dark and rainy. He already told Rachel that he was being followed by a creepy person. Why confront someone late at night who's following you? Wouldn't you be calling the police or heading home and Then calling the police.


He supposedly didn't want to go home, because he was afraid for the 13 y.o. son of Brandi Green. I can see reasons for not wanting to go home, but I would if someone strange was following me.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:59 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
Magnus wrote:
Why stalk a teenager and carry a gun while you approach him even though police told you not to?

The police did not order him not to follow Martin because this is not within the dispatcher's purview. The 911 dispatcher only said the police did not "need" Zimmerman to investigate further. Clearly, Zimmerman felt it was his responsibility to do so. Granted, maybe an egotistical asshole macho rent-a-cop B.S. choice on his part, but not illegal nor undermining any police command.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:56 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
David wrote:
Magnus wrote:
Why stalk a teenager and carry a gun while you approach him even though police told you not to?

The police did not order him not to follow Martin because this is not within the dispatcher's purview. The 911 dispatcher only said the police did not "need" Zimmerman to investigate further. Clearly, Zimmerman felt it was his responsibility to do so. Granted, maybe an egotistical asshole macho rent-a-cop B.S. choice on his part, but not illegal nor undermining any police command.


BBM-that is not in evidence. There is no proof that GZ followed after that instruction. People may speculate that he did, but it is not in evidence.

Quote:
Sean Noffke, the dispatcher who was on the phone during Zimmerman's non-emergency call, testified regarding his own statements at that time. Noffke said that when he told Zimmerman "We don't need you to do that," he was making a suggestion, not giving an order. He said that dispatchers do not give orders because of liability issues. During cross-examination, Noffke testified that Zimmerman did not seem angry during the call, and that he wanted the police to come to his location. Noffke also testified that he asked Zimmerman which way Martin was going, and that his question could be interpreted as a request to go and see which way he was going. He clarified his statement that dispatchers do not give orders, but suggestions for the safety of the caller. He testified that Zimmerman's swearing and comments about Martin did not raise any particular concern, but under redirect said that Zimmerman's language could be interpreted as "hostile." The defense then asked if Noffke actually heard hostility, and he said no. The defense asked about the statements regarding Martin's race and appearance, and Noffke testified that all of the discussion was for the purpose of identification of the suspect, and did not seem unusual


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_George_Zimmerman

If anyone is upset with the verdict and has a question they think is not addressed by the decision, I would be happy to provide a link to relevent issues, if available. If people followed the actual trial and not the media spin and think the verdict was a miscarriage of justice, I respect that opinion. However, I see too much misunderstanding and misinformation in much of the comment on this trial.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:09 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
Groucho wrote:
If anyone is interested in a defense attorney's views, my blog post is here: http://ventrellaquest.wordpress.com/201 ... ur-ground/


Reading your blog, for one I don't agree with you calling Zimmerman a stalker.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:22 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
To mdana. I enjoyed your recap posts above. Good Job!

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:25 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
I've ignored this story until today when a friend told me about it. It seems that the US (including Obama) is trying to make this about race. Typical.

The hispanic dude was clearly in the wrong for getting out of his car, but then the black dude shouldn't have started a fight. Guns shouldn't be allowed to be carried around the streets, and the courts should have sentenced him for at least manslaughter.

The story is just one big joke and the joke's on you, America.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:08 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
mdana, very well said. Mike, you seem as misinformed as the rest of our populous on this case. I again blame the media.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:18 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
The lesson to take away from this is that if you're a black person in Florida walking home from the store in your own neighborhood and some creepy white dude starts following and harassing you, start beating the fucker and don't stop until you're sure he's dead. Then call the police and seek shelter under the 'stand your ground' law.


Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:43 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
Bradley Witherberry wrote:
if you're a black person walking home from the store in your own neighborhood and some white dude starts following you, start beating the fucker and don't stop until you're sure he's dead.


That's pretty much what happens anyway.

What a world we live in. It's like Africa. Chaos.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:46 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
Magnus wrote:
Bradley Witherberry wrote:
The lesson to take away from this is that if you're a black person in Florida walking home from the store in your own neighborhood and some creepy white dude starts following and harassing you, start beating the fucker and don't stop until you're sure he's dead. Then call the police and seek shelter under the 'stand your ground' law.


except if you're a black person and you do that you're going to jail for life.

I know. There's no justice in this world. Black people do stuff and don't get the correct punishment.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:08 am
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Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:56 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
It should've been manslaughter. The jury got this wrong.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:58 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
Maybe the story would have another ending if they charged him with manslaughter first rather than going for an absurd second-degree murder conviction.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:15 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
Remember kids if you get bullied after school, just use apply the stand your ground law and shoot if you get beat up.


Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:25 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
Chippy wrote:
It should've been manslaughter. The jury got this wrong.


Explain where the "jury got this wrong."

Judge West's instructions in the George Zimmerman Trial:


Quote:
MANSLAUGHTER

To prove the crime of Manslaughter, the State must prove the following two elements
beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. Trayvon Martin is dead.

2. George Zimmerman intentionally committed an act or acts that caused the
death of Trayvon Martin.

George Zimmerman cannot be guilty of manslaughter by committing a merely negligent
act or if the killing was either justifiable or excusable homicide:

Each of us has a duty to act reasonably toward others. If there is a violation of that
duty, without any conscious intention to harm, that violation is negligence.

The killing of a human being is justifiable homicide and lawful if necessarily done while
resisting an attempt to murder or commit a felony upon George Zimmerman, or to commit a
felony in any dwelling house in which George Zimmerman was at the time of the killing.

The killing of a human being is excusable, and therefore lawful, under any one of the
following three circumstances:

1. When the killing is committed by accident and misfortune in doing any lawful act by
lawful means with usual ordinary caution and without any unlawful intent, or

2. When the killing occurs by accident and misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any
sudden and sufficient provocation, or

3. When the killing is committed by accident and misfortune resulting from a sudden
combat, if a dangerous weapon is not used and the killing is not done in a cruel or
unusual manner.In order to convict of manslaughter by act, it is not necessary for the State to prove that George Zimmerman had an intent to cause death, only an intent to commit an act that was not merely negligent, justified, or excusable and which caused death.

In order to convict of manslaughter by act, it is not necessary for the State to prove that George Zimmerman had an intent to cause death, only an intent to commit an act that was not merely negligent, justified, or excusable and which caused death
.

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Rel ... ctions.pdf

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:32 am
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
He killed him. And he intentionally did it.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:04 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
El Murato wrote:
Remember kids if you get bullied after school, just use apply the stand your ground law and shoot if you get beat up.

Seems like a good area for applying this law (assuming legal gun ownership). Might reduce the (fake) reports of increased bullying.


Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:28 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
Magnus wrote:
Caius wrote:
Might reduce the (fake) reports of increased bullying.


you really should spend a day at a public school one day if you think those statsitics are overly blown. I'm not gonna argue that they're 100% accurate but they're not overly blown to the point that bullying is a major issue with youth today in this country.

You don't think it was as much of a problem in the past? Just something getting bad now? Why are you spending your days at public schools?


Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:49 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
mdana wrote:
Groucho wrote:
If anyone is interested in a defense attorney's views, my blog post is here: http://ventrellaquest.wordpress.com/201 ... ur-ground/


I was seriously disappointed.


Ooh, damn. And I wrote this especially to please you.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:50 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
When discussing the law, you should be clear about your context, otherwise we're left to assume.

Is the statement "John deserves to be in jail" based only on what you think happened, or your feelings on the application of law? Comments like "The jury got this wrong" come across coated in ignorance. Worse than that, here in this very thread, there has been a lot of discussion about the facts of the case. To still say something like "The jury got this wrong" makes you either willfully ignorant or unable to apply factual reasoning, especially when you provide no reasoning behind your opinion.

Harsh words. Yet the stupidity of the masses, the inability to think logically or reason, leaves our society in the sad shape it is today. Our society is quick to react, but quicker to ignore logic, reasoning and the thought that should precede such strong emotions. Get rid of the emotion, the social context, the inept prosecution, even your feelings on the laws. Leave nothing but the facts of the case and the laws that govern them.

The prosecution painted a story where Zimmerman is a killer. The defense painted a story where Zimmerman acted in self defense. The prosecution did NOTHING to discredit the defense's picture. The burden rests on the prosecution and there was clear and reasonable doubt about which story was accurate.

Reasonable doubt is an important protection of our legal system, I'll borrow the words of another, for I believe they state it well:

Quote:
Most jurors start with an overwhelming presumption that the police always tell the truth, and (contrary to jury instructions) most jurors do hold it against the defendant (at least subconsciously) if the defendant does not testify. On top of this, in most criminal cases there is a vast resource disparity in favor of the prosecution, both in terms of the respective skills of the particular attorneys as well as the access to experts, forensic resources, etc. Most judges are former prosecutors, and it is darn near impossible for a prominent member of the defense bar to ascend to the state or federal bench.

All of these factors, and probably more, contribute to the fact that we have the highest per capita incarceration rate in the world. Every couple of years seems to bring a new wave of exonerations of people who were wrongfully convicted, often in trials where an honest review of the evidence will reveal that the reasonable doubt standard, properly applied, would have resulted in a not guilty verdict.

If you want an accurate sense of the manner in which our criminal justice devalues the lives of young black men, take a look at the population of our prisons, the unrelenting severity of our sentencing practices, and the disgraceful failure of our recent Presidents and most governors to mitigate these impacts through use of the clemency power. Whatever legacy Trayvon may have, I cannot imagine he would want it to be the further weakening of a legal standard that is one of the only protections young black men have when facing prosecution and imprisonment on a scale unheard of in virtually any other country in the world.


Beware your context, and take some time to form an informed opinion. I have no problem with a difference in opinion, but I have no time for an opinion bathed in ignorance. You do an injustice to everyone by spewing it.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:37 pm
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Post Re: Zimmerman Trial
Groucho wrote:
mdana wrote:
Groucho wrote:
If anyone is interested in a defense attorney's views, my blog post is here: http://ventrellaquest.wordpress.com/201 ... ur-ground/


I was seriously disappointed.


Ooh, damn. And I wrote this especially to please you.


You are getting schooled in this thread, by non lawyers?

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