.
Sky News has just reported that Arafat is brain dead.

My logic is not flawed, perhaps undetailed, but not flawed! Their problem does not start with the 1940's conflict but goes far back in the passages of time! One would be desitute of knowledge to think that it is only that recent! Come now and don't jest! I know you know this truth!

Jews and Arabs lived together for over a thousand of years. It was the Christians who were intolerant towards Jews, not the Arabs.

fair enough, but thats not what i said. wouldnt it be easier if sharon died and a fairer israeli leader was chosen

Yeah, but Israel as a Nation State didn't exist before then either, so I don't get where you're going with that? And there has been quite alot of conflict in the area going as far back as the Maccabees and the First Temple.

I think one of our problems here is confusing Israel with Jerusalem and Palastine. They are not all one and the same. The strife is coming from one part (Old Quarter) in one city (Jerusalem) and some occupied territory (West Bank). These two conflicts are of very different nature, and also, do not really include the rest of Israel. If we address those two problems, Tel Aviv, etc, can just get on with its life hopefully.

-Dolce

LOL, Sharon IS a fair leader. Do you realize that half the country is pressuring him to be MORE aggressive with Hamas?

is that your opinion or my opinion?

That's not an opinion; that's how it is over there.

@bABA, it didn't have to be death, he could have just stepped down long ago, but since he was in the position for life, there's really nothing that can be done except, well this. Its not going to be some miracle pill, and yes, since its still ambiguous as to what's going to happen next, it could be nothing. There's a slim chance it'll even get worse. But there are too many other ocuntries invested in this now that are going to jockey to put their puppet in and I really don't see the situation continueing to go down.

Yes but my stand on the issue has always been very different .. krem wants him out for being a known terrorist ... personally i think hes done good for the palestinians as well ... and i could very well say the same thing about the most of the israeli govts ..

@hans i think I know what you're saying ... you didnt mean an entire nation at all ... but people like to interpret things as they see fit.

glad that someone understands

Yes, tis true that they lived together for thousands of years and they may possible live together for thousands more if we don't destroy ourselves, but no one ever said that it was a completely peaceful time! Many peoples live together, but that does not always ensure peace!

Back to my original statement that the Middle East will never see peace as long it exists. It doesn't matter what group, it's the region as a whole...all groups included! I never said Jews and Arabs specifically, you did!

There is too much conflict, history and bloodshed there for things to ever be at peace!

aren't we all?

Again, my point was that people always over-drmaticize things like this.

"Circle of violence"
"There will never be a peace"
Etc.

There IS a solution, and we owe ourselves not to get caught up in rhetoric, but to actually believe in it.

Actually, I have to disagree with you on this one. Not because I think Sharon is a good leader. I hate him, I think he should be out of their and Israeli's have a damn short memory since they apparently forgot who marched into Jerusalem and stick a silly Israeli flag on the wall, kicked off the new intifada in the first place.

But Israel did have, as you put it, a *fairer Israeli leader* in Barack awhile back, and Arafat started playing games. Barack was willing to give up so much that Israeli's even got uncomfortable with it, but they help their tongues (until election time that is) and would have complied had Arafat at that point settled. He didn't. He dedided that since Barack was already willing to give in to all the demands, "Why not ask for even more?" The guy refused to settle, even when their was a *fair( Israeli Prime Minister. That should indicate to you what kind of games Arafat was up to.

As I said, I think part of those games were because he was congniscent (sp?) of his own lack of complete control, but still, he could have tried but wasn't willing to because he was too busy pandering to certain unnamed peoples.

Yeah, Arafat needs to step down, and I'm glad he's doing it from natural causes because otherwise all hell would have broken loose, but I won't say I'm not glad he's finally out of there.

-Dolce

Hans, here's an advice for the future: if you don't want your comment to be pereceived as antisemitic, don't make it sound like one.

ofcourse i do .. remember i come from the side which views israel the same way krem views palestine ...

a) Israel and arab conflict has existed under different names before as well ... Muslims and Jews for some reason have always had problems and I never understood why really ... I've been told so many times not to intereact with someone for being jew and i've asked them to get a life really ...

b) I agree with han's statement .. is that your opinion or my opinion?
Krem you can say its how it is all you want but from the other side, you'll hear them say the exact opposite, yet you'll either tell them its wrong or its their opinion and they'll give you the same answer that you just gave hans.

c) Its not seeing any improvements till both sides keep believing the other is responsible and the other is the terrorist and their own actions are nothing more than retaliations.

Why are you quoting me on this???

Excuse me? How is it that you believe I view Palestine?

I couldnt come up with anything else??

my apologies ...

both palestine and israel should be followed by "governing body" or govt or whatever you wanna call it ..

my mistake.

Back to the question - i dont think this a good thing for both sides, if indeed he does die in the next few hours/days/whenever the palastinian people will be pissed and who will they blame for it? so this is not really good.

well hans, unless someone sparks a major conspiracy theory like they were in some way making him sick through the compound walls, or spin the whole story and say the israeli govt's tactics deteriorated the health of a man who could have lived more ... I don't see how blame can really exist .. I"m sure there'll be people who'd express anger for the sake of it but ...

Bwahahahaha!

bABA! Did you change the title of this thread? It's hilarious! Only would would think up something like that. Hehehe.

Also, to bABA. I know what you're saying, and Arafat has been around for too long to say he has done nothing. I think you remeber my past posts in that other thread, but I really do think he's just lost power, and that's the problem. He has probably done stuff in the past that was agreeable, unfortunately he weened the babies that later dethroned him. He may have done some good in the past, but he also has backed himself into a corner where he is no longer capable of doing anything and is just pandering to fringe groups right now.

I've already said that even if he wanted to do something at this point, no one would listen to him. If he told Hamas not to blow up a bus, they'de laugh at him and do it anyways. He has zero control of the situation. This was not always the case, and perhaps he was more effective at those points in time. But he can't do anything now, and has decided rather than to admit it and step down, or try to do something about it, to continue along his march with regal garb that only *wise* people can see. The guy is really butt naked right now and everyone knows it. Its best to step down and let someone else try and give it a go. Wether they will be more or less successful is anyone's guess.

-Dolce

he's scared of me 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Sorry, I meant to quote hans quoting you ;-)