Most people don't know this, but Auschwitz wasn't the most feared camp. Mauthausen was:

http://www.remember.org/camps/mauthausen/

They did not make as extensive use of gassing because there were so many other ways to kill prisoners. The emphasis in the camp was in killing you in the most painful way possible. This goddamn camp gave me three straight weeks of nghtmares when I was young; I lived in Vienna, so less than 2 hours from it. The camp incidentally contained all kinds of prisoners. One of the key point to the Holocaust is that everyone was or would eventually be a victim. If there were none left, victims would have been invented, somehow (say, brown haired people, etc.)

Btw, recent documents just a few months ago revelaed that Mauthausen was groomed to be the next Auschwitz.


I mean, really:

http://www.remember.org/camps/mauthause ... table.html

http://www.remember.org/camps/mauthausen/mau-gas02.html

http://www.remember.org/camps/mauthause ... tairs.html

And REALLY:

http://www.remember.org/camps/mauthausen/mau-mcd.html

Tasteless.

Good Idea. I concur whole heartedly. We should start a letter writing campaign, "End Mass Atrocities...It makes teaching history to grade schoolers so much easier."

Unfortunately, I bet them damn Republicans would shoot the bill down because then Bush would have nothing to do for the next 3 years.

But at least no child would be left behind in history class.

Well, my apologies for depressing the hell out of everyone tonight.

Except for Dolce, who is managing to crack jokes in a thread about concentration camps. She is one sick bastard!

@Boxie....No, please keep talking about it. Memory is the only thing that helps us not repeat the same errors. I think its much better to deal and maintain discussions about the past than to gloss it over. Everyone's IQ point went up by 1 tonight. Then dropped back down due to my humor.

@TonyMontana...I deal with this discussion so much in my life because there is a little bit of post-Holocaust trauma on my mother's side that has really formed our family's identity. Don't think I do not take this very seriously. If I've given off some other impression than forgive me.

I was kidding!!!! I was the one cracking the jokes. I also take it very seriously, but still managed to stick in a few cracks about George Bush and legislation to limit tragedies. I just realized I can't be seroius about anything, and nothing I write should ever be taken seriously, let alone as anything resembling the truth. But, I stand by my statement that you are a sick bastard. :wink:

(please notice winking laughing symbols to indicate you are neither sick, nor a bastard)

I'm curious about something, if this isn't too sensitive or personal: How does a Jewish person react to all of this?


I've always seen the Holocaust as a universal issue, although clearly centered on the extermination of one specific minority in particular, but which eventually would victimize everyone. I have a problem, for example, with the lack of emphasis placed on the 800k-1m gypsies that were killed; a few months ago even, 57% of Bulgarians said they considered gypsies essentially low lifes ( not the words in the article I read, but they were getting at that point). But it can't help but be a different experience for a Jew, right?

Well, I'm not quite sure what you are asking, so if you elaborate I might be able to answer better. If you mean do I have trouble listening to discussions about the Holocaust, than sure, but I think its better to put them out in the open than to ignore them. I would be more bothered if we didn't talk about it.

Beyond that it still depends on the individual. I am distanced enough from the events to say it is time to move the discussion beyond shear shock, but I am not so far removed from it that I care for making direct parallels. I don't think that is ever the case however, and every situation has its own nuances whether it be Rwanda, Bosnia, or Germany. I think there should be expansive discussions that critique social environments that lead to these atrocities, but I also don't think history is a complete repeat, and that the word Holocaust should necessarily be used for any other situation.

I, personally, include that word not only for the Jews, but as you say, for many other people that went through the Camps including homosexuals and gypsies, etc. Also for all the handicapped people that were experimented on. And it also has an association for me of the particular machanized processes and organizational structure particular to that event.

My appraoch is a luxury I have being 2nd generation removed. My mother is only one generation, so experienced my grandparents problems directly (as in how they never fully re-adjusted to life) and she will say it is only about the Jews. I understand that, she still experienced direct repercussions, and I can't expect everyone to seperate themselves from that experience.

You are going to find amongst my generation, 30 or younger, that there is a bit more of an open discourse amongst most people. So it is very hard for me to speak about an entire generation having one view the way I would have if I was 60 right now.

I think I always find it a little bit uncomfortable to announce my Jewish background, especially when I'm not sure who is on the recieving side. I used to have some trouble in grade school because of it. But I feel that anyone who is participating in this thread obviously is sensitive enough to the issues that they aren't going to tell me they want me to go home and never come back just because I identify more with Yom Kippur than Lent.

Does that answer your question at all?

Ya, it does, thanks for the post.


Regarding the term itself, I've never applied to to any other event, nor would I be comfortable with anyone using it to refer to something else. I can understand analogies being made, but to state that one event IS the same as the other is, as you suggested, not really the case. I absolutely hate 'nuclear holocaust'; a terrible, terrible phrase.


For me, the key association between the Holocaust and Rwanda and other such events lies in a specific ethnic group (or groups) being targeted for absolutely no justifiable reason (and there couldn't be any such reason). I don't know if I would be comfortable with extending it further than that, but that in of itself is a powerful link, I think.

Well it certainly is genocide, and I don't think anyone should consider it as anything other. I remeber wy back in high school holding a Rwandan "Tea Party" to try to raise awareness. No one came. Its funny how attention to events almost always builds up only in retrospect. I think its important to use our accumulated knowledge in order to start addressing contemporary violations. I hope you continue to draw attention to them.

edit* Do you mind me asking you a similarly personal question?

Oh no, I don't mind. Go right ahead.


Btw, the awareness issue is pretty interesting; Darfur seems to be yet another such instance, and we're once again ignoring it. yet as many if not more have died there than in Iraq...

NYTimes mentioned it in 1/2 a sentence today in an op/ed pice about Ukraine.

Boxie...where were you born? I only ask because I get the feeling it was either Egypt or Russia, but really can't tell. I've just noticed you've moved through several countries, etc. When we first spoke at BOM, I assumed you were long time Canadian...but now you said you've lived in Vienna too?

Ohhh, ok. Lol. Alright:

I was born in Iraq, one of the minority Christians, but lived in Vienna for 5 years before moving to Canada.

So it's been quite a ride, hehe.

I've been mistaken for:

Russian

French

German (???)

Italian

Spanish

L. American

British

I still have no clue how it is I could be mistaken for all those. No one has ever guessed the right country. It doesn't help that I (apparently) have a unique accent. It's different than either that of my family or friends, or classmates.

Thanks. I knew you were either Coptic or Orthodox, and had moved around alot, but couldn't narrow it down beyond that. I guess I was off on both guesses.

So its an interesting scenario...asking me how I feel about Holocaust discussions, as in compared to how you feel about what is going on today? Do you identify with it differently at all?

[lightmoment]

You edited that in after. So I'll respond. Its prbably 'cause you got dark hair, dark eyes, a sexy bod, and a nice little accent. That usually throws people in a ton of different directions. :wink:

Don't worry, people have thought I'm Dutch, Italian, French, German, and Russian too.

[/lightmoment]

I'm neither Coptic nor Orthodox, hehe. Eh, Assyrian Church, that's its name.

It's a pretty old tradition. We're more or less the last remainders of those old Babylonians and Summerians and Arameans and Assyrians and etc. Of course, they all disappeared by intermixing with others, so no clear line anywhere.


As to how I feel:

I was against the war, but was against Saddam as well (big time). It's one of those lose lose situations.

I'm a bit disturbed about the radicals taking over; Christians and Muslims have been living very well side by side, and those guy obviously want to turn each side against the other. When its 700,000 against 25M, its clear which side will be on the losing end...

But I dunno, the constant moving around hasn't allowed for an attachment to any specific place. I like Canada the most I'd say, because it gives me the greatest freedom to be myself.

Hahah, I dunno how well that description fits, but I'll take the sexy bod 8)

The continual confusion is just prove that these 'types' are an invention; no single group like like this or that, pure fiction, all of it.

Kinda fits nicely with the major theme of this thread.

Ok, wow, I just checked the time, no wonder my eyes are getting heavy. I'll be off to bed, so goodnight to everyone :wink:

Yeah this is a shame but it would be more important that the British remember the names and dates of places where the British empire did things wrong, no?

Just like frankly it would be better if Americans knew more about what we did to the Indians than this.

By focusing on the Holocaust as the worst thing, in a way we absolve ourselves of things we've done.

Obviously not to belittle the importance of Auschwitz and all, I think you all get my point even if you disagree.

I'm not sure what I think of all this, I just thought this was an interesting alternative angle to throw into the mix.

If you've ever read Night or heard people from the Concentration Camps speak you'll remember the all the names and the places.

I didn't know about it till I learned in school, but that makes sense. But still... 45%? That's like 45% of the American population not knowing what happened at Pearl Harbor. Or, in a few years, 45% of Americans not knowing about September 11th. Well... I think, at least. Who knows, though? It's probably a case of people not knowing or caring, because it's all history, which is how many are. Mostly the teens.

9/11 and Pearl Harbor happened in the US so it's not really the same. It's more like decades from now a lot of young Brits not remembering 9/11. (If you want to use 9/11 in the analogy)

It's also worth remembering that the US has a much shorter history to remember. In a British school you have this mammoth amount of stuff you are taught, dwarfs American history by far in terms of dates and facts.

True, Arch. I was trying to find some comparison, but I understand it's not really the same.

This is sad, really sad. Sometimes, ingorance might be a bliss, but definitely not in this case. Something like this makes me sad.