The Ten-Year Plan begins.

Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is, and often personally associated Turkey with Europe as much as I did with any other region. Thought y'all would enjoy the cartoon.

mmmm.....turkey.......




















:wink:

Turkey is not European. Period. Part of it is, but that is mostly historical. There is no more Troy, no Ephesus, no Byzantium, no Constantinople. It ceased to exist when the Ottoman Empire came into being, and it is no more.


Edit: And it is a huge deal. Turkey doesn't even recognize Cyprus, yet Cyprus is part of the bloody Union! How can you have one member not recognize the existence of the other?

I don't recognize the EU. Does that make me not European?

More of a European, Id say. I don't like the Union anyways.


But Turkey is not European.

Ask England.

The point is what is the EU at this point? There are a set of standards and many regulations that Turkey has to meet first, but if it does so, including reaching an understanding about Cyprus, than why shouldn't they be accepted? Its not being taken as is, it has to work a bit first, actually a lot.

Turkey is no less an association with me as far as the EU as, say Estonia. A adjacent border is just that. It has little do do with cultural identity if the political demands are met. Isn't Canada trying to work something out too? That would be a bit of a stretch compared to this.

Europe = suck
Turkey = almost suck

And I don't see how geographical borders can be used to determine what Europe is, since there is no line of division. As I said in another thread, Unlike the other continents, there is no definite dividing point between Europe and Asia, and the continent actually is Eurasia, as it ought to be (I'm in support of that).


"European" therefore is more of an idea, re-inforced for centuries and millennia.

I'd define it as a set of nations that share among themselves a culture based on the union between the Greco-Roman civilization and Christianity. Note that I said 'based' on, since many exceptions occur, and of course there are plenty of minorities.

I don't like the idea of Eurocentrism (which I believe is the technical term), but if we go by that, Turkey is not part of it. Constantinople was, so a part of what now is Turkey was, but Turkey as it is today is not Europeanm, but rather of a tradition more in tune with that of the Middle East, through no small part due to its religion.

So TUrkey is not European (it really isn't; I suppose I'm the only one in this thread who's actually been there and knows why it's not European ;-)). As my friend Cartman would say, what's the big fucking deal?

They want to let it in? So let it in. If you ask me, the whole thing shouldn't be political anyway, but leave it to the Europeans to want to create a world government. Let them do it, but leave me out, plez.

dp

You know, I completely understand those who argue that the UK is not part of Europe. Their idea of what Europe is is different from the one I pointed out, but just like the concept I laid out, it is completely artificial.

That's the thing with Europe; it's basically an idea. There is no reason why that geographical region should be designated as 'Europe', and I'd say the same thing about the 'Middle East'.

The problem with these artificial constructions is that they are open to a varying degree of interpretation.

You can argue, for example, that since Spain has a past that includes Islam and the Moors, it is not as 'fully' European in the same sense as other regions would be, no? But then again, parts of Turkey have a Christian past...


I'd also seriously take a second look at Russia as a European country; some 70m or so of its people live outside of what is traditionally the border of Europe (Ural mountains), and it's Asian landmass dwarfs the European part. I'd say that the creation of St. Petersburg, and efforts by Peter 1 and Catherine are fundamentally beinhd Russian conceptions of itself as being firmly European, yet Dostoevsky and others were firmly opposed to this idea, wanting to break away from it.


As well, if we go by cultural factors being the main reasons for designating certain areas, another argument, indirectly, in opposition to Turkey would be that it is much closer culturally and especially religiously, to the Middle East and the Arab world.

But, that is not quite true either; much of the problem stems from Turkey pretty much cutting itself off from the Middle East but not quite integrating itself with Europe. It's at a crossroads in many ways.

One thing I'm certain of is that, if Turkey wants to become part of Europe, than the idea of Europe has to change to accomodate that. I can't see any way in which Europeans could accept Turkey as part of their region unless the very idea of Europe changes.

This of course leads to the question as to why the hell they would want to do that, and I guess economics is the reason behind it. I'm sure a lot of people in Turkey don't want it, while a lot of others do (mostly for economic reasons). But it's such a monumental waste of time and effort. They've been wanting it for decades, and it will take decades, and I have this feeling that they will be sorely disappointed by the consequences. Honestly, I'd say join America

They tried. Remember they entertained thoughts of giving the U.S. the ability to use their military bases before entering Iraq because they wanted to be, I guess, part of the *Coalition of the Willing* that would have a bit of say in post-war reconstruction. That really worked well...

Ya, they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Thing is, I don't really feel all too sorry for them, partly for those reasons named in that cartoon you posted. I think the Ottoman Empire was easily among the most reviled in history, ad it's treatment of minorities was despicable. But then again, Europe's track record would be the cause of envy for many a brutal regime...hm, they really might just deserve each other...

Sigh, I really wish the EU countries would cut this 'unity' crap. I find it offensive that they're almost acting as if nothing happened 60 years ago. I mean, bloody hell, Poland lost 1 in 5 of its people, and it's expected to just embrace Germany and Austria and move on? And what is Scandinavia doing being part of the EU? They have nothing to gain from it at all...

And many a Polish men assisted in that 1 in 5 loss. That's like saying Lincoln shouldn't have bothered with reconstruction after the confederacy split, and honestly I probably have about as much in common with some people in this country as Turkich and Latvian people do. They're not unifying out of any other reason than to create an alternative power structure to the united states of america. That euro has been pretty damn strong against the dollar of late, so that pretty much sums it up right there.

Dunno. If they comply with all the rules and meet the standards, than why not? I don't think "European" boundaries should be drawn according to religious identity as you mentioned in your first post. Where does that leave everyone licing within one country who isn't? And what does that say about group identity and the "religious wars?" Sure, I think if Europe was smart they would toss a Muslim country in there asap just to prove this isn't 1098...again.

I know what you're saying about Eurasia, but that's why since the lines are so flexible it should be used as reform and association and not along ethnic or religious lines. It can open up alot of possibilities this way.

And yeah, the comic wrapped that part up pretty good, that's why I posted it.

I dont really think it's religious; more, 'based' on a common Christian culture. I mean, a lot of Europeans certainly aren't Christian, yet it's literature, art, etc. is more or less a combo of Greece/Rome and Judeo-Christian/Biblical influences, no?


Anyways, I agree that the division lines are artificial, so if Turkey wants to join, then Europe has to change to accomodate it. If they want to do so, then good for them, I guess. Not by problem


Btw, your point about the Polish assisting, etc., is interesting. Even the Europeans in the individual countries can't get along, yet they want one big family under one umbrella

Turkey isn't Europe. I don't see why they want in the club, anyway. Bunch of losers (The Smiley means I am not serious...)

Ask Wales about the EU. Their new map totally excludes Wales. They just choped off England from Wales at the border. Like its water front. :evil:

No way in hell Turkey should join the EU. The geographic thing doesn't bother me, at least not as much as the poor economy, the awful human rights situation, and not recognizing the Armenian genocide.

well that's the point Jon. They have to meet all the standards first. They've already started taking alot of measures, and are going to have to clean up before they can join. Personally, I think its quite a smart way of forcing a country to eliminate human rights violations. Instead of say, entering with troops and tanks and committing your own violations in the name of liberation. Are we not trying to do the same thing in Iraq right now? Stablize the government, economy, and civil liberties? Theoretically, the EU is forcing Turkey to do the same thing with far less blood and bullying involved.

I still dont understand people going on and on about turkey not being part of europe. It is; officially, geographically and politically.

Except Turkey is not a dictatorship (nor has it been throughout the 90's), is not trying to invade a neighboring country and is very open to trade. Other than that it's totally the same thing as Iraq