Register  |  Sign In
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:43 pm



Reply to topic  [ 672 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 ... 27  Next
 2024 election - Second Republican debate 

Is Biden vs Trump 2 really going to happen?
Yes, it is inevitable 63%  63%  [ 5 ]
No - A rematch just doesn’t feel right! Something has to give 38%  38%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 8

 2024 election - Second Republican debate 
Author Message
Devil's Advocate
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am
Posts: 37886
Post Re: 2024 election
Darth Indiana Bond wrote:
I have a hard time seeing Trump getting the nominee now. I would put it below 50% and after his poor night last night, I don’t see as many GOP higher ups coming to his aide when he inevitably gets indicted.


Part of the 70/20 is it’s not for sure DeSantis is running, it’d be a bit closer otherwise.

_________________
Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227


Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:20 am
Profile
Devil's Advocate
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am
Posts: 37886
Post Re: 2024 election
Excel wrote:
Shack wrote:
Imo

Biden chance of being nominee: 95%

Trump chance of being nominee: 70%
DeSantis chance of being nominee: 20%

After Fetterman winning big the Democrats should not be afraid of Biden age and mental condition in 24.


When are some people going to grasp that moderate voters in swing districts in swing states will take the boring but stable, drama-free personalities every time? These people want stability, and economy/crimes are the big threat to that, hence why they're so important. But even more threatening to stability are the bizarre, absurd attacks on democracy. Anyone surprised that someone like Mastriano lost in a state like PA is a certified fool not his subject with hideous analytical skills on this subject.

Biden has been stable, drama-free, and frankly has gotten results. It is remarkable that people continue to underestimate what are obviously exceptional political instincts on Biden's part at this time.


They lost in 2012 cause they had a good independents candidate with bad turnout. So while Trump has some weaknesses he also has some strengths, both of his elections Republicans did better than polls because people really showed up on election day. If they nominated Haley or Pence they would get their normal/boring candidate but would probably disappoint on election day. He is not the perfect candidate who can mix both sides, but if someone like DeSantis is closer, he can prove it by beating him in the primary.

_________________
Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227


Fri Nov 11, 2022 4:36 am
Profile
Superfreak
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:54 am
Posts: 21876
Location: Places
Post Re: 2024 election
Shack wrote:
They lost in 2012 cause they had a good independents candidate with bad turnout. So while Trump has some weaknesses he also has some strengths, both of his elections Republicans did better than polls because people really showed up on election day. If they nominated Haley or Pence they would get their normal/boring candidate but would probably disappoint on election day. He is not the perfect candidate who can mix both sides, but if someone like DeSantis is closer, he can prove it by beating him in the primary.


You are taking away the wrong lessons from 2012. Romney was an exceptionally strong GOP candidate who would have beaten Hillary by a much larger margin than Trump ended up doing so. Republicans lost in 2012 not due to turnout but because they were up against Obama, who was is quite simply a historically strong campaigner and candidate, who happened to be an incumbent at the time. Pretty much that simple. 2016 replaced Obama with a MUCH less attractive ticket and the conditions were a bit more favorable for Republicans.

You want Republican or Democrat to win in true swing states, you need Biden/Youngkin./Romney et al. style moderates

_________________
Ari Emmanuel wrote:
I'd rather marry lindsay Lohan than represent Mel Gibson.


Fri Nov 11, 2022 8:53 am
Profile
007
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:43 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: Wouldn't you like to know
Post Re: 2024 election
I think Shack has a good point there though. Turnout in the first half of last decade was remarkably low, and Trump was the cure to that. He energizes untapped demographics in ways a moderate cannot. I think DeSantis has similar appeals with his culture war warlord status.

_________________
Image


Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:22 am
Profile
Superfreak
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:54 am
Posts: 21876
Location: Places
Post Re: 2024 election
2016 turn-out for GOP would have happened either way given it was an open election. Again, Trump loses all swing states I'm 2016 if arrogant Dems hadn't stayed home. 2012 was closer than it looks. In Florida for example, Romney actually got a higher % of the vote in 2012 than Trump did in 2016.

Also, it is becoming more and more clear that 2016 is a huge outlier for Trump's movement. In 2018, 2020, and now 2022, moderates have sharply outperformed MAGA overall in critical swing states.

_________________
Ari Emmanuel wrote:
I'd rather marry lindsay Lohan than represent Mel Gibson.


Fri Nov 11, 2022 10:56 am
Profile
Devil's Advocate
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am
Posts: 37886
Post Re: 2024 election
Excel wrote:
Shack wrote:
They lost in 2012 cause they had a good independents candidate with bad turnout. So while Trump has some weaknesses he also has some strengths, both of his elections Republicans did better than polls because people really showed up on election day. If they nominated Haley or Pence they would get their normal/boring candidate but would probably disappoint on election day. He is not the perfect candidate who can mix both sides, but if someone like DeSantis is closer, he can prove it by beating him in the primary.


You are taking away the wrong lessons from 2012. Romney was an exceptionally strong GOP candidate who would have beaten Hillary by a much larger margin than Trump ended up doing so. Republicans lost in 2012 not due to turnout but because they were up against Obama, who was is quite simply a historically strong campaigner and candidate, who happened to be an incumbent at the time. Pretty much that simple. 2016 replaced Obama with a MUCH less attractive ticket and the conditions were a bit more favorable for Republicans.

You want Republican or Democrat to win in true swing states, you need Biden/Youngkin./Romney et al. style moderates


The truth might be somewhere in the middle, yes he did face good competition but also was not an inspiring candidate for conservatives. A lot of people vote with their hearts over their heads. It's unclear whether Romney who lost is better candidate than 2016 Trump who won.

The other thing is what's the point of winning if it doesn't mean anything. 2012 Romney if he pulled the upset on Obama would have been barely more right wing version of him for 4-8 years, then the Democrats get in for 8 years and push the country more left, and then the next Republican president is more left wing than Romney using the same strategy that it's the best way to win. Eventually Republican vs Democrat becomes the equivalent of today's Democrat primary, the Democrats are only the left wing ones in the sense that they're Bernie/AOC to the Republicans Obama/Hillary. The Democrats might lose the presidency for 4-8 years every once in a while, but the left wins the long game, all they have to do is wait for Gen Z and millennials and immigrants to become bigger part of population and white Reagan voters to die and they get everything they want. Conservatism as of 2014 was screwed in the long run in the US regardless of whether they won a presidency once in a while. The only thing Romney type wins would do is delay what's coming by a few more years.

What conservatives actually need is for it become "popular", for it become trendy to be traditional or something, and to actually push the needle the other way rather than just slow down leftism. In the 80s Reaganism was "cool" and Democrats were lame with people like Dukakis. Maybe DeSantis culture war style is better for that than Trump, but Trump was the necessary cycle breaker and made people aware of how the media, big tech and education had essentially been taken over by left wingers who know how powerful those tools are to coerce the next generation into their views.

_________________
Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227


Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:11 pm
Profile
KJ's Leading Pundit
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:45 pm
Posts: 63026
Location: Tonight... YOU!
Post Re: 2024 election
The only problem is Conservatism isn't popular. Because the world has become progressive. And Republicans just don't seem to realize that and are trying to hold on for dear life by forcing their insanity on everyone else.

_________________
trixster wrote:
shut the fuck up zwackerm, you're out of your fucking element

trixster wrote:
chippy is correct

Rev wrote:
Fuck Trump


Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:00 pm
Profile
Hold the door!

Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:26 pm
Posts: 20302
Location: Where they shot Knock at the Cabin
Post Re: 2024 election
In America progressivism IS a plurality but not a majority. So they do have an edge in that they only need a smaller percentage of moderates to reach a majority.

But Conservatives win the congressional popular vote all the time. They will have recently won it in 2022, 2016, 2014, and 2010 . Even when a state votes a progressive for president, they often cast more votes for conservative congressmembers nationally.

Conservative presidential candidates have appealed less to moderates since 2004 and that is why they lost, not because there's some huge supermajority of leftists in the country.

You think Miami Dade and Palm beach counties are conservative bastions now just because they voted for a Republican? Desantis just won the overwhelming majority of moderate votes in these counties.


Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:19 pm
Profile
KJ's Leading Pundit
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:45 pm
Posts: 63026
Location: Tonight... YOU!
Post Re: 2024 election
And when he starts enacting more and more of his shit policies, Florida will swing back.

_________________
trixster wrote:
shut the fuck up zwackerm, you're out of your fucking element

trixster wrote:
chippy is correct

Rev wrote:
Fuck Trump


Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:41 pm
Profile
Devil's Advocate
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am
Posts: 37886
Post Re: 2024 election
Chippy wrote:
The only problem is Conservatism isn't popular. Because the world has become progressive.


It was headed that way before but covid totalitarianism pissed a lot of people off and the American left now has a worldwide negative association with cancel culture, and in general censorship is very uncool, rebellion is cool. When I was a kid Eminem, South Park and Stone Cold Steve Austin seemed a lot more cool than the Christian guys getting mad at rap lyrics. Nowadays the left is increasingly becoming like the latter. So now the future is a bit more unpredictable in terms of progressivism's approval rating.

In general it's still not a very progressive world, though. After all, North America, Europe and South America only combine for like 1.7 billion people. And NA and Europe includes some countries that would not be considered that progressive. In terms of progressivism it gets a lot dicier in the other 6 billion people, much of it going too far the other way in terms of right wing, in my opinion.

_________________
Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227


Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:50 pm
Profile
KJ's Leading Pundit
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:45 pm
Posts: 63026
Location: Tonight... YOU!
Post Re: 2024 election
Shack wrote:
Chippy wrote:
The only problem is Conservatism isn't popular. Because the world has become progressive.


It was headed that way before but covid totalitarianism pissed a lot of people off and the American left now has a worldwide negative association with cancel culture, and in general censorship is very uncool, rebellion is cool. When I was a kid Eminem, South Park and Stone Cold Steve Austin seemed a lot more cool than the Christian guys getting mad at rap lyrics. Nowadays the left is increasingly becoming like the latter. So now the future is a bit more unpredictable in terms of progressivism's approval rating.

In general it's still not a very progressive world, though. After all, North America, Europe and South America only combine for like 1.7 billion people. And NA and Europe includes some countries that would not be considered that progressive. In terms of progressivism it gets a lot dicier in the other 6 billion people, much of it going too far the other way in terms of right wing, in my opinion.


Except eventually people will realize "covid totalitarianism" was not actually a thing, as there was not a single "lockdown" in the US. Not a single person has ever been "cancelled". Censorship IS cool, especially when it's white supremacists being censored. Racism isn't "rebellion". Eminem, South Park, and Stone Cold are all democrats, lmao.

_________________
trixster wrote:
shut the fuck up zwackerm, you're out of your fucking element

trixster wrote:
chippy is correct

Rev wrote:
Fuck Trump


Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:58 pm
Profile
Superfreak
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:54 am
Posts: 21876
Location: Places
Post Re: 2024 election
Shack wrote:
The truth might be somewhere in the middle, yes he did face good competition but also was not an inspiring candidate for conservatives. A lot of people vote with their hearts over their heads. It's unclear whether Romney who lost is better candidate than 2016 Trump who won.

The other thing is what's the point of winning if it doesn't mean anything. 2012 Romney if he pulled the upset on Obama would have been barely more right wing version of him for 4-8 years, then the Democrats get in for 8 years and push the country more left, and then the next Republican president is more left wing than Romney using the same strategy that it's the best way to win. Eventually Republican vs Democrat becomes the equivalent of today's Democrat primary, the Democrats are only the left wing ones in the sense that they're Bernie/AOC to the Republicans Obama/Hillary. The Democrats might lose the presidency for 4-8 years every once in a while, but the left wins the long game, all they have to do is wait for Gen Z and millennials and immigrants to become bigger part of population and white Reagan voters to die and they get everything they want. Conservatism as of 2014 was screwed in the long run in the US regardless of whether they won a presidency once in a while. The only thing Romney type wins would do is delay what's coming by a few more years.

What conservatives actually need is for it become "popular", for it become trendy to be traditional or something, and to actually push the needle the other way rather than just slow down leftism. In the 80s Reaganism was "cool" and Democrats were lame with people like Dukakis. Maybe DeSantis culture war style is better for that than Trump, but Trump was the necessary cycle breaker and made people aware of how the media, big tech and education had essentially been taken over by left wingers who know how powerful those tools are to coerce the next generation into their views.


You're not reading "inspiration" well. You are assuming GOP inspiration = rural hillbillies showing up in full force, which they largely did for Romney who was a highly popular candidate in 2012. The inspired Repubs of 2012 were mores in suburbs and other areas that people in 2022 just assume are all Democrat. Romney was actually a highly educated and accomplished business person who had a ton of natural appeal to those type of people. He was largely viewed as their best candidate since Bush of 1988. He ran against an all-time great campaigner who was also an incumbent and the atmosphere around the "occupy wall street" movement. Romney was simply a bad fit for the time, but anyone or their Mother can tell that he would have been a better president Dole, W. Bush, McCain, or of course Trump.

2012 did, however, make America numb to the Dems stupid identity politics/mass generalization tricks. Recognizing white, rich, but still warm & friendly Romney's appeal to suburbs, they took every chance they could to call him racist, sexist, too rich to be in touch, too spineless to stick to positions. Meanwhile, Romney donates tons of money, has black grandchildren, and proved to have more backbone vs Trump than anyone else in his entire party except maybe Liz Cheney. Then an actual racist sexist billionaire ran in 2016 and moderates were numb to the Dems complaints while urban voters arrogantly assumed Hillary would win and stayed home to too far of an extent.

Beyond that, there is not a need for "conservatism to become popular". The parties stance on social issues simply doesn't align with most people in the US and that isn't going to change. The party need to adapt.

zwackerm wrote:
In America progressivism IS a plurality but not a majority. So they do have an edge in that they only need a smaller percentage of moderates to reach a majority.

But Conservatives win the congressional popular vote all the time. They will have recently won it in 2022, 2016, 2014, and 2010 . Even when a state votes a progressive for president, they often cast more votes for conservative congressmembers nationally.

Conservative presidential candidates have appealed less to moderates since 2004 and that is why they lost, not because there's some huge supermajority of leftists in the country.

You think Miami Dade and Palm beach counties are conservative bastions now just because they voted for a Republican? Desantis just won the overwhelming majority of moderate votes in these counties.


The word conservative is just bad in the eyes of independents because many see it as a cover word for religious. Republican has a much more appealing meaning in the sense of limited government overall. The religious element scares independents greatly.

_________________
Ari Emmanuel wrote:
I'd rather marry lindsay Lohan than represent Mel Gibson.


Last edited by Excel on Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:41 pm
Profile
KJ's Leading Pundit
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:45 pm
Posts: 63026
Location: Tonight... YOU!
Post Re: 2024 election
Wonder if anyone will ever find out that Democrats easily won the votes of "poor" people, while Republicans dominated rich people.

Ahh well

_________________
trixster wrote:
shut the fuck up zwackerm, you're out of your fucking element

trixster wrote:
chippy is correct

Rev wrote:
Fuck Trump


Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:43 pm
Profile
Superfreak
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:54 am
Posts: 21876
Location: Places
Post Re: 2024 election
Shack wrote:
Chippy wrote:
The only problem is Conservatism isn't popular. Because the world has become progressive.


It was headed that way before but covid totalitarianism pissed a lot of people off and the American left now has a worldwide negative association with cancel culture, and in general censorship is very uncool, rebellion is cool. When I was a kid Eminem, South Park and Stone Cold Steve Austin seemed a lot more cool than the Christian guys getting mad at rap lyrics. Nowadays the left is increasingly becoming like the latter. So now the future is a bit more unpredictable in terms of progressivism's approval rating.

In general it's still not a very progressive world, though. After all, North America, Europe and South America only combine for like 1.7 billion people. And NA and Europe includes some countries that would not be considered that progressive. In terms of progressivism it gets a lot dicier in the other 6 billion people, much of it going too far the other way in terms of right wing, in my opinion.


90% of the population lives in the real world, not cancel culture or maga culture. Respect of other people & their ability to live their lives is what is cool. That is why most of these people vote the more moderate candidate in most instances - they want balance.

_________________
Ari Emmanuel wrote:
I'd rather marry lindsay Lohan than represent Mel Gibson.


Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:49 pm
Profile
Devil's Advocate
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am
Posts: 37886
Post Re: 2024 election
Excel wrote:
You're not reading "inspiration" well. You are assuming GOP inspiration = rural hillbillies showing up in full force, which they largely did for Romney who was a highly popular candidate in 2012. The inspired Repubs of 2012 were mores in suburbs and other areas that people in 2022 just assume are all Democrat. Romney was actually a highly educated and accomplished business person who had a ton of natural appeal to those type of people. He was largely viewed as their best candidate since Bush of 1988. He ran against an all-time great campaigner who was also an incumbent and the atmosphere around the "occupy wall street" movement. Romney was simply a bad fit for the time, but anyone or their Mother can tell that he would have been a better president Dole, W. Bush, McCain, or of course Trump.


Romney won independents by 5% and lost the election by 4%. So obviously, his appeal to non independent conservative voters wasn't that good. And 332-206 is a pretty mediocre performance. He could have won all of Florida (0.9%), Ohio (3.0%) and Virginia (3.9%) and still lost, he had to perform like 5.5% better in the popular vote than he did. If he was so great he could have at least pushed Obama more who wasn't as popular in 2012 as 2008. The 2012 Republican primary is also garbage (Santorum is 2nd lol) leading him to basically win by default.

_________________
Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227


Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:59 pm
Profile
Devil's Advocate
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am
Posts: 37886
Post Re: 2024 election
Maybe Trump heard something about Youngkin planning to run, as seen by another cringey Truth Social post about him

_________________
Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227


Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:42 pm
Profile
007
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:43 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: Wouldn't you like to know
Post Re: 2024 election
He’s trying to tighten his grip on the party

_________________
Image


Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:06 pm
Profile
Superfreak
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:54 am
Posts: 21876
Location: Places
Post Re: 2024 election
Shack wrote:
Romney won independents by 5% and lost the election by 4%. So obviously, his appeal to non independent conservative voters wasn't that good.


Quote:
And 332-206 is a pretty mediocre performance. He could have won all of Florida (0.9%), Ohio (3.0%) and Virginia (3.9%) and still lost, he had to perform like 5.5% better in the popular vote than he did.


You're really underestimating the impact of Obama here, but alas. If Obama ran for term 3 in 2024, he would win hugely.

Quote:
If he was so great he could have at least pushed Obama more who wasn't as popular in 2012 as 2008.


Romney pushed Obama hard. Obama was and still is hugely popular among Ds and Is. That Romney won the I vote against him is impressive. Romney would have defeated Hillary by a larger margin than Trump did.

_________________
Ari Emmanuel wrote:
I'd rather marry lindsay Lohan than represent Mel Gibson.


Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:33 pm
Profile
007
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:43 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: Wouldn't you like to know
Post Re: 2024 election
After the initial wave of blaming Trump for the midterms, prominent Republicans are starting to shift their blame towards McConnell. I am starting to feel like the GOP is going to double down on the same mistakes they keep making instead of learning any lessons after the midterm disaster.

_________________
Image


Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:44 pm
Profile
007
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:43 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: Wouldn't you like to know
Post Re: 2024 election
McConnell and McCarthy win the majority in their parties, but 31 voted against McCarthy…not sure if anyone of those 31 would side with the Democrats

_________________
Image


Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:00 pm
Profile
Don't Dream It, Be It
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:45 pm
Posts: 37152
Location: The Graveyard
Post Re: 2024 election
This support, even if still relatively small, that Rick Scott is receiving from those weirdly angry at McConnell is bizarre. I can understand wanting to revamp the party and all, but backing Rick Scott of all people?

And seriously, McConnell gets barely any blame here, if at all. If it wasn't for him spending a record amount of money on these unfavorable candidates that Trump and the far-right got nominated, they'd have lost even more. His Super Pac was the largest advertiser in 6 of the 10 competitive Senate races.

Wisconsin being pretty likely to have flipped if not for McConnell spending tons on ads attacking Barnes in the fall (soon after polls shifted to Johnson too). Without McConnell, Johnson would have been outspent 2:1, but it was one of few states where the R received more money in (more than half the money there was from McConnell). And I even think North Carolina could have flipped without McConnell. It may have even helped keep Georgia in play by helping keep Warnock below that 50% mark.

_________________
Japan Box Office

“Gods are great ... but the heart is greater. For it is from our hearts they come, and to our hearts they shall return.”
“We were like gods at the dawning of the world, & our joy was so bright we could see nothing else but the other.”
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
“You have to pretend you get an endgame. You have to carry on like you will; otherwise, you can't carry on at all.”
"Paper is dead without words / Ink idle without a poem / All the world dead without stories."


Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:09 pm
Profile WWW
Hold the door!

Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:26 pm
Posts: 20302
Location: Where they shot Knock at the Cabin
Post Re: 2024 election
I understand the populists hate Mcconnell, but there are plenty of other establishment guys who don't get the same ire. His particular unpopularity is confusing


Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:15 pm
Profile
007
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:43 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: Wouldn't you like to know
Post Re: 2024 election
McConnell is easily one of the most successful senators of all time

_________________
Image


Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:42 pm
Profile
The Dark Knight

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:30 am
Posts: 757
Post Re: 2024 election
McConnell is evil but also very smart. Way too smart for the Trump base and the Trump wing of the party. He rightly saw them failing a mile away and since they can no longer hate the message they've decided to hate the messenger instead.


Tue Nov 15, 2022 5:57 pm
Profile
007
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:43 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: Wouldn't you like to know
Post Re: 2024 election
If the GOP puts forth Rick Scott as the new face of the party after McConnell, they can kiss majorities goodbye with his anti-social security messages

_________________
Image


Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:15 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 672 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 ... 27  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.