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 "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion 
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Shack wrote:
Probably one of the best episodes ever. Like an epic movie


Cheers, honey

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Tue May 14, 2019 1:25 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Shack wrote:
Probably one of the best episodes ever. Like an epic movie


Yep. That may be my biggest issue with the endless criticisms. We've been given not one, but two incredible 80-minute episodes of television budget that we've never seen before on TV, and even better than most movies. People can say all they want "Oh the episode looked great" but it's buried by the "worst episode ever! GOT ruined!" comments.

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Tue May 14, 2019 1:35 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Mister Ecks wrote:
Totally fine with that, but it feels sometimes like I'm watching a different show. And honestly I end up feeling like maybe I'm not invested enough or I don't care enough, because I just don't understand how these episodes can be so poorly reviewed. It's not that I don't get their criticisms, it's why am I not feeling the same way, at least in an understanding way? I know we all have different thoughts, but usually I can at least see why something is getting ripped apart.


I realized years ago something was wrong with TV critics. I blame it on clickbait. Much like Trump impeachment articles, it's easier to get views and shares if you appeal to people's emotions and takes they agree with. Right now the anti-GOT side is very emotional and the GOT defending side is trying to take a measured approach and still see flaws but also strengths. I'm not saying there are critics who loved the episode and then wrote a fake article about hating it, but once the trend became to go neg on this season it may have happened subconsciously as they they went in looking for the worst parts of it so they could write a take people would read, or just have no confidence in their opinion and became sheep. If you go in determined to see either the good or bad in art you can probably find it. In my opinion many mediocre/bad Netflix shows get let off the hook because reviewers will get more views finding anything positive about it and appealing to the people who like the show, than bashing it. People turn the Netflix shows they don't like off after 10 minutes so there is virtually no audience for negative reviews about them. They're not calling shows that are a 3 a 10, but they are calling shows that are a 3 a 6 or 7 which allows them to criticize a bit but still come out on the positive side to make the people who like the show happy. This is also why negative reviews for music doesn't exist anymore https://www.metacritic.com/browse/album ... eases/date GOT is the opposite in that the reactions are negative, but it's a slippery slope at that point. Overall when it comes to click driven reviews of any art form and reviewers barely scraping by financially, there are too many factors pushing them beyond here is my honest opinion, read it

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Tue May 14, 2019 1:45 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Mister Ecks wrote:
Flava'd vs The World wrote:
There is also a conspiracy theory going around now that GRRM has actually finished the books but Benioff and Weiss won't let him release them.

People really didn't like this episode. :funny:


Why are people so certain that GRRM has given zero input in the last two seasons? My personal opinion is he has absolutely no idea how to finish the story.


GRRM confirmed the ending to D&D - so the ending and who sits the Iron Throne (if anyone) that will be on the show will be the same/very similar to what is intended in the books.

The way the show and the books will get to that ending will obviously be different as D&D ran out of source material by the end of Season 5.

The problem with GRRM is that he writes as he goes and doesn't outline the story in any detail. This is why he is stuck because his story has become to unwieldy. The show writers on the other hand knew the ending, knew how many episodes they wanted to allocate to the final two seasons - so set about filling in the gaps with big events they wanted to see happen before the end.

By doing so, they lose the intricate details and set-ups, the character development and motivations and thus it feels rushed and has less of an impact. Threads that were seemingly built up for a big payoff have been abandoned. This is the main gripe about season 8 that most people have and I generally agree.

That said - the episodes have been magnificently staged and filmed. Talk of worst episode(s) ever are just nonsense. Disappointing - yes, poor - no.

Another major reason for the low scores is that fans are pissed at how the story has developed - i.e. prophecies not fulfilled, Dany turning rogue, Night King being killed easily, Dragons being killed, Direwolves banished etc.

You can never please everybody after a such a buildup.

I think its best to enjoy the show (finale) for what it is (and it is a major pop culture event that we are unlikely to see the scale of any time soon) and hope that GRRM will finish the books one day so we can see if his version does the story justice.

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Tue May 14, 2019 8:16 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Shack's main site article is pretty good, it voices an understanding for Dany that was just not depicted in the show.

Shack wrote:
"Tyrion and Varys were two of her most trusted confidants and both betrayed her"


Tyrion has done, or at least thought up, so much stupid shit that cost Dany, it's a surprise, especially in hindsight that she didn't "Dracarys"ed him before anyone else.

But still, what I didn't really get was, with the bells being rung and she's on Drogon on the city walls...why didn't she just gear all that anger to the Red Keep and burn the whole castle and Cersei and everyone in it down...why go through the whole city first, giving Cersei as much of a chance to escape. It's just not really making much sense.
Her motivation to kill women and children, it came from somewhere, that "experienced personal heartbreak after heartbreak and wanting to lead from fear" are a way to explain it, but the very moment to to start burning those civilians appeared so suddenly out of nowhere, it remains to feel too un-instigated for me to make sense of it. And that's just on the writers.


Tue May 14, 2019 8:53 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Mau wrote:
Ok this needs to stop. 49% on Rotten Tomatoes? For "The Bells*?!? What the fuck?


This is so absurd lol.

If nothing else, cinematically this episode was amazing.


Tue May 14, 2019 9:42 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
stuffp wrote:
Shack's main site article is pretty good, it voices an understanding for Dany that was just not depicted in the show.

Shack wrote:
"Tyrion and Varys were two of her most trusted confidants and both betrayed her"


Tyrion has done, or at least thought up, so much stupid shit that cost Dany, it's a surprise, especially in hindsight that she didn't "Dracarys"ed him before anyone else.

But still, what I didn't really get was, with the bells being rung and she's on Drogon on the city walls...why didn't she just gear all that anger to the Red Keep and burn the whole castle and Cersei and everyone in it down...why go through the whole city first, giving Cersei as much of a chance to escape. It's just not really making much sense.
Her motivation to kill women and children, it came from somewhere, that "experienced personal heartbreak after heartbreak and wanting to lead from fear" are a way to explain it, but the very moment to to start burning those civilians appeared so suddenly out of nowhere, it remains to feel too un-instigated for me to make sense of it. And that's just on the writers.


Plot device to show Danyt is a monster and the "Big Bad" for the finale. Also allows Cersei and Jaime to die together, Cleganebowl to happen etc.

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Tue May 14, 2019 10:17 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
stuffp wrote:
Shack's main site article is pretty good, it voices an understanding for Dany that was just not depicted in the show.

Shack wrote:
"Tyrion and Varys were two of her most trusted confidants and both betrayed her"


Tyrion has done, or at least thought up, so much stupid shit that cost Dany, it's a surprise, especially in hindsight that she didn't "Dracarys"ed him before anyone else.

But still, what I didn't really get was, with the bells being rung and she's on Drogon on the city walls...why didn't she just gear all that anger to the Red Keep and burn the whole castle and Cersei and everyone in it down...why go through the whole city first, giving Cersei as much of a chance to escape. It's just not really making much sense.
Her motivation to kill women and children, it came from somewhere, that "experienced personal heartbreak after heartbreak and wanting to lead from fear" are a way to explain it, but the very moment to to start burning those civilians appeared so suddenly out of nowhere, it remains to feel too un-instigated for me to make sense of it. And that's just on the writers.


She did it for fun. She's always enjoyed burning people alive, since Season 1.

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Tue May 14, 2019 11:23 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
How would the sacking of King’s Landing play in the books?


Jon - the two armies at the gates, worries about Dany losing control
Euron - Drogon destroys ships
Dany - Tearing shit up, feeling a little too good about the burning, hears the bells
Tyrion - Hears the bells, hopes she stops but she does not
Arya - Someone has to watch Cleganebowl and then she chooses her life over revenge
Cersei - Tries to escape while reflecting, finds Jaime
Jaime - fights Euron, finds Cersei, death scene
Jon - Calls for the retreat
Arya - adds Dany to her list
Dany - justifies it to herself

Just laying it out like that makes it easier to stomach. If people knew it was coming the reaction wouldn’t be nearly as harsh.


Wed May 15, 2019 5:09 am
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Flava'd vs The World wrote:
If people knew it was coming


I think the strength of GOT has been how it surprises with shocking turn of events, mostly at the end of a season starting with Ned's beheading, then the Red Wedding and beyond.

But the writing onto how those events came to take place has been pretty top notch, the Stark deaths were no less liked than the burning King's Landing, but they just came upon due to cause.

And in the most recent episodes these surprising turns just didn't come upon this way anymore, and instead happened just as a means to explain a conclusion. It's the lazy writing that makes the criticism deserved.


Wed May 15, 2019 7:09 am
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
MAGNUS RANT:


Dany going Mad Queen is the RIGHT end destination for her character...in the books. The TV show however failed to earn that turn even though I knew it was going to happen and in fact have been telling my friends for years that Dany is not going to be a "good" person. Foreshadowing isn't by itself strong character development.

Moreso, the bigger issue isn't just the turn but the extreme extent of it. People are underplaying the fact that what Dany does is LITERALLY THE MOST EVIL ACT IN THE HISTORY OF THE SHOW! Even her father trying to burn the entire city down would have been less evil (as he was doing it in an effort to kill his enemies and also believed that he would survive the fire). Even Aegon's conquest never had an act like this. It is an extreme decision to make even for a psychotic Targaryan. There were much better ways to have her turn/go bad/go mad and not have her commit the worst atrocity in the series.

You don't get to just have your major character do such an act without earning it and they did not earn it. Anakins turn in ROTS is more earned than Danys in GoT and that's saying A LOT. Thus, it is unequivocally HORRIBLE writing. Anyone saying otherwise to me fails at basic storytelling criticism.

Now, the shows popularity and relevance happen because the shows first four seasons were among the best written episodes of TV ever. So when the final stretch of the show basically loses the core quality of what made the show relevant, critics have every justification to shit on it. If the show was just about visuals and production, no one would be attached to these characters and stories as they are and it would have never been THIS big of a show.

Undoubtedly, the production and visuals are amazing and unlike anything we've seen on TV. But if a piece of content completely loses its core quality, the secondary elements are far less meaningful and impactful. Battle scenes like Blackwater and The Watchers of the Wall aren't as well produced as the battles of this season but the writing around those battles enhance them. For example, the death of Yrgitte is a better executed death scene than any of the death scenes from this season.

Now, what I will say is that the main cause of all these problems isn't just this season but season 7, which I still contend is the worst season of GoT and completely ruined the show for me. I hope that those who praised that season will go back and understand why it was so flawed. The reasons that these issues exist in S8 is because the show failed to set things up properly in S7. If there was better development of the story and characters in S7, a lot of these S8 issues would be minimized or non-existent.

Finally, I will say this: the majority of fantasy franchises have weaker endings than their beginnings. ROTK (the book) isn't as good as FOTR or TT, The Wheel of Time didn't quite finish in the best of ways, Harry Potter last book is kinda whack, etc. So one thing I will admit is that it is actually normal for a story of this type to not feel as good as what it was before. But none of those other examples had such a significant flaw that this show has done with Danys turn. I do think if GRRM ever gets to finishing the books, he will lay out the turn much better (to MadGez's point, it is probably a big reason why its taken him forever because he knows what the end destination is but is struggling how to get there and maintain quality and integrity of his story). But the show dropped the ball.

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Wed May 15, 2019 11:10 am
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
stuffp wrote:
Flava'd vs The World wrote:
If people knew it was coming


I think the strength of GOT has been how it surprises with shocking turn of events, mostly at the end of a season starting with Ned's beheading, then the Red Wedding and beyond.

But the writing onto how those events came to take place has been pretty top notch, the Stark deaths were no less liked than the burning King's Landing, but they just came upon due to cause.

And in the most recent episodes these surprising turns just didn't come upon this way anymore, and instead happened just as a means to explain a conclusion. It's the lazy writing that makes the criticism deserved.
Oh what I meant was that if this scene had already been written and digested by book readers. There’d be less outrage and more of the funny reaction videos we got from the red wedding.


Wed May 15, 2019 12:13 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Magnus hits the nail in the head.

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Wed May 15, 2019 12:42 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
New theory I see - Bran is behind it all. He warged into Drogon and made him destroy the city to make Dany look bad and destroy the alliance of ice and fire. Now Bran will take his place as the new Night King.

Honestly makes more sense than what happened on Sunday.


Thu May 16, 2019 1:24 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
1. I thought he cannot pop into dragons.
2. Missandei's last word Dracarys. Makes Perfect Sense
3. Dany telling Jon "fear then"

The videos that have recapped all the times she's threatened fire and brimstone make it all make sense. The stuff that doesn't make sense is Arya not getting turned to dust while being on the same street as the woman & daughter and this Jon Snow love when he's been the worst leader / decision maker evah.

** I was watching a after show reaction vid and one of the comments suggested that the show ends with Bran popping out of a vision and none of all this stuff happened up to a point. Oohh, that'd be so evil.

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Thu May 16, 2019 2:23 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
I've seen the script.

Ned wakes up in King's Landing and realises it was all a dream. Instead of going down to review the genealogy book as planned - he couldn't care less who Robert's children are and closes the case and goes back to sleep.

The End.

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Thu May 16, 2019 11:03 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
What if Bran just wakes up after falling out the window?

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Fri May 17, 2019 11:45 am
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
zwackerm wrote:
What if Bran just wakes up after falling out the window?


If it were all a vision of a possible future then the backlash would be inmense, the biggest in tv history, bigger than The sopranos backlash.


Fri May 17, 2019 12:20 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
St. Elsewhere, Dallas (Season 9), Roseanne

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Fri May 17, 2019 1:00 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Magnus wrote:
MAGNUS RANT:


Dany going Mad Queen is the RIGHT end destination for her character...in the books. The TV show however failed to earn that turn even though I knew it was going to happen and in fact have been telling my friends for years that Dany is not going to be a "good" person. Foreshadowing isn't by itself strong character development.

Moreso, the bigger issue isn't just the turn but the extreme extent of it. People are underplaying the fact that what Dany does is LITERALLY THE MOST EVIL ACT IN THE HISTORY OF THE SHOW! Even her father trying to burn the entire city down would have been less evil (as he was doing it in an effort to kill his enemies and also believed that he would survive the fire). Even Aegon's conquest never had an act like this. It is an extreme decision to make even for a psychotic Targaryan. There were much better ways to have her turn/go bad/go mad and not have her commit the worst atrocity in the series.

You don't get to just have your major character do such an act without earning it and they did not earn it. Anakins turn in ROTS is more earned than Danys in GoT and that's saying A LOT. Thus, it is unequivocally HORRIBLE writing. Anyone saying otherwise to me fails at basic storytelling criticism.

Now, the shows popularity and relevance happen because the shows first four seasons were among the best written episodes of TV ever. So when the final stretch of the show basically loses the core quality of what made the show relevant, critics have every justification to shit on it. If the show was just about visuals and production, no one would be attached to these characters and stories as they are and it would have never been THIS big of a show.

Undoubtedly, the production and visuals are amazing and unlike anything we've seen on TV. But if a piece of content completely loses its core quality, the secondary elements are far less meaningful and impactful. Battle scenes like Blackwater and The Watchers of the Wall aren't as well produced as the battles of this season but the writing around those battles enhance them. For example, the death of Yrgitte is a better executed death scene than any of the death scenes from this season.

Now, what I will say is that the main cause of all these problems isn't just this season but season 7, which I still contend is the worst season of GoT and completely ruined the show for me. I hope that those who praised that season will go back and understand why it was so flawed. The reasons that these issues exist in S8 is because the show failed to set things up properly in S7. If there was better development of the story and characters in S7, a lot of these S8 issues would be minimized or non-existent.

Finally, I will say this: the majority of fantasy franchises have weaker endings than their beginnings. ROTK (the book) isn't as good as FOTR or TT, The Wheel of Time didn't quite finish in the best of ways, Harry Potter last book is kinda whack, etc. So one thing I will admit is that it is actually normal for a story of this type to not feel as good as what it was before. But none of those other examples had such a significant flaw that this show has done with Danys turn. I do think if GRRM ever gets to finishing the books, he will lay out the turn much better (to MadGez's point, it is probably a big reason why its taken him forever because he knows what the end destination is but is struggling how to get there and maintain quality and integrity of his story). But the show dropped the ball.


I couldn't agree more. I have no objection with the turn and it will most likely happen in the book. Its the way that they have built up with the heel turn where you just go from 0 degrees to 500 degrees in one turn with no increments in between except for the case of Tarleys being burnt. My other issues is that the actions of some of the characters contradicted with the book because they felt they want to save money on the CGI(Jon would not just have given his wolf away like that) or because they want to appease the redit crown(Jaime sleeping with Brienne when in the books it mentions how much he was replused by Briennes look). Too many times have the characters instantly teleport from one place to another between season 7 and 8.

Its such a shame because season 1 to 4 were A+ in my opinion despite some changes on season 4. Season 5 took a big step down but still enjoyable and season 6 was slightly between. Season 7 and 8 dragged the grading down to Lost and Walking Dead levels. It reminds me that Season 1 of GOT aired the same time as Starz Camelot show.That latter show had a budget that rivals HBO and actually has good production. However Camelot was a show so bad and cliched that it was a lesson for writers to avoid when making medieval fantasy shows. GOT S7 and 8 has literally became that

This is what happens when Dumb and Dumber have too much creative control and develop an ego trip in doing so changes from GRRM book in season 5. They also got lazy because HBO wanted 13 episodes per season for S7 and 8 but they insist on 6 because they wanted to get the show over with


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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
It is quite evident that D&D just wanted to be done with the series. The fact that they have so many major projects after GoT without taking any real break shows that they didn’t want to wait.

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Fri May 17, 2019 2:13 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
I think GOT writers were always better at dialog than everything else. That was ok when they could stick to GRRM story and characters though.

This twitter thread is good


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Sat May 18, 2019 1:09 am
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Watched the first 5 episodes over the past few days and sorta agree with Mister Ecks, feels a bit like I've been watching a different show to whatever the critical backlash is directed at.

Nothing here is unexpected given the way season 7 was made: the couple of years off just enabled greater technical accomplishment; the scripts of each final season were no doubt written together, and the previous season's plotting - and soap opera style of unimaginative melodrama - should've cushioned everyone's expectations more.

"It became less about the weight of the past and more about the spectacle of the present"

Or whatever that twitter writer guy Shack shared said - he's clutching at cleverness straws to gain more followers, I'd say. Of course the creators of a TV adaptation have a different creative method to the fucking author. Benioff may be an author himself, and they might've had enough exposure and expertise from Martin as co-executive to keep the series on par with the first six seasons, but there's clearly more to it than that; they plain and simply aren't as good at plot development as GRRM is, and the idea they've burnt-out is entirely presumptive, a call made when looking at the number of episodes rather than the overall runtime and the technical effort required to pull it all off.

The more reasonable assumption is, they simply got it wrong due to their comparative lack of talent. The TV guys either didn't respect their audience in the same way GRRM did or themselves have misjudged the driver of the show's popularity, which popularity has always been due not only to the anarchial no-hero realism of the real-world projected through a slow-burning climax in a fantasy realm, but mostly for the breathtakingly imaginative plotting and the high respect paid to its characters (which created way more unpredictability-fueled dramatic intrigue than we'd been accustomed to) naturally housed therein.

Benioff and DB, straightforwardly, are no-where near as creatively deep as that. Martin is a genius compared to these guys. They thought the show was about melodramatic last-word, ego-building sequences in season 7, and that all fans wanted from the finale was to have the long narrative foreplay go straight to the dramatic - but ultimately premature - ejaculative.

Season 8 is getting such shitty reviews, because it's not the same show; but neither was season 7, and the backlash is itself way too emotionally based to justify itself. Unto themselves, these episodes are fucking excellent - the fact they went for groundbreaking technicality and missed a creative mark they were never capable of meeting, shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Case and point: the criticism of 'The Longest Night' - that it was apparently too darkly lit and resolved the WW storyline way too rapidly. This sort of reaction to an episode that objectively raised the TV bar higher than its ever gone before, is nothing more than greediness. And anyone thinking the creators were over it, clearly didn't notice the runtime, clearly didn't notoce one of the greatest and most intense battle-to-resolutions ever put to film, if not the greatest - the end of the Avengers and Return of the King (sans Mount Doom) very much included.

At this point, who gives a shit whether Danearys' arc into madness was long enough to make sense. 'The Bells' is again a major, huge, balls-to-the-wall television masterpiece. No-one got lazy; less dramatically, good plot ideas can't be forced, and the writing part is never as difficult, as the execution.

I think that, if you want to keep with the foreplay, much better to accept the show for the best it could be, and to, you know, read the books - Martin will no doubt end things more to your satisfaction; and it was always his story, not HBO's. The show is still plenty likeable for an array of good reason: the episodes are fucking enormous, and, in the end, it'll probably finish well enough to justify the complaints everyone's bitching about.


Sat May 18, 2019 7:33 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Why does everyone defending the show go back to the same two points?

“From a technical perspective, it’s like no other TV show before!”
And
“Well writing a good end to a TV show is hard so let’s not be hard on them for trying and not meeting High expectations!

The story and characters are why the show is popular. Not the dragons or spectacle. And when your reach is further than your grasp narratively, that just means that you don’t treat ending a show like Game of Thrones lightly and you either work on it till it’s as good as can be or let HBO hire someone with talent to write it.

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Sat May 18, 2019 8:39 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Nah, just that that post didn't expand enough on the "episodes are excellent unto themselves" to make a different case. Meant the writing of The Longest Night, and especially the direction, are both top notch when expectations are removed. The two episodes prior are just build-up, as is the next to 'The Bells' - which isn't as good as ep 3 but it's still pretty fucking major.


Sat May 18, 2019 8:47 pm
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