Register  |  Sign In
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:38 am



Reply to topic  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 occupy wall st 
Author Message
Powered By Hate
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm
Posts: 7578
Location: Torrington, CT
Post Re: occupy wall st
Yes, it matters in the context of this thread because OWS might result in a shift in civic engagement. It does have the support of most of the populace right now. Most of the protesters aren't regular voters. Since this is now picking up global steam, it's potentially a big deal.

_________________
It's my lucky crack pipe.


Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:57 pm
Profile
Forum General
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm
Posts: 8636
Location: Toronto, Canada
Post Re: occupy wall st
Well the Tea party will have effects but more on the congress and Senate level.

I think Republicans will keep the House and the Senate is a toss up. Looking at the races for 2012 and Obama has to win like a Clinton, Regan landslide to create a huge coattail effect to change things in the two houses.

Senate, GOP is locked to pick up at least 2 and can only lose Scott Brown in Massachusetts.


It will be a very messy situation.

If Obama wins then that takes away a lot of power from Republicans in the houses.


Also about uncertainty, do you know the IRS has pretty much declared war on every American living in a foreign country and dual citizens and anyone who is America without even knowing about it. It has after all these years, wants money from all of these people and any investments they have. For example if an American living in Canada lives his whole life and has kids and they start a Savings plan for their kids education, the IRS wants a piece of that. Its becoming a huge issue here in Canada and the people who are affected are normal folks and are not tax cheats. Also there is no focus on Corporations and off shore income.

They next want to go after Non-Americans investing in property in the US.

No wonder why there is such a flight of capital from the US going on.

_________________
The Dark Prince

Image


Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:24 pm
Profile WWW
Powered By Hate
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm
Posts: 7578
Location: Torrington, CT
Post Re: occupy wall st
Mannyisthebest wrote:
Well the Tea party will have effects but more on the congress and Senate level.


They'll turn up, but their support is half that by Americans as OWS is now.

I need to look into the IRS thing.

_________________
It's my lucky crack pipe.


Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:29 am
Profile
Forum General
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm
Posts: 8636
Location: Toronto, Canada
Post Re: occupy wall st
Its more of a problem in Canada as around 1 million people in Canada are American citizens or are somehow required to file taxes with IRS.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opi ... le2183736/
(many articles on that site about this)

Its silly you have to report every account or investment over $10,000. That is small potatoes, and that is an outdated amount set in the 1970's.

Anyways, millions of Canadians are now worried about their properties in the US and the IRS is going to go to war on them.

Now the thing that makes people angry is all these years nothing was sad and know its everyone is a crook. I have not heard about any companies getting in trouble. I imagine companies know the loopholes and file the paperwork not to get caught.

Lol it does not matter about support for the Tea party, its about their members showing up.

I highly doubt the OWS people will have an effect on Congressional races in the suburban/rural areas.

OWS will have an effect on the presidential election.

_________________
The Dark Prince

Image


Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:58 am
Profile WWW
A very honest-hearted fellow
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:02 pm
Posts: 4767
Post Re: occupy wall st
Tyler wrote:
Mannyisthebest wrote:
Well the Tea party will have effects but more on the congress and Senate level.


They'll turn up, but their support is half that by Americans as OWS is now.

I need to look into the IRS thing.

I don't see this as sustainable or true. I could see a many Americans being against bailing out banks and some of the goals of OWS, but I doubt a majority support OWS qua OWS. Do Americans that did not go to college really want to fork over their hard earned money so some kid can spend his early twenties learning nothing and going to a few parties?

The OWS crowd mostly seems like whiny upper class youthful Marxist layabouts mixed in with some 60s radicals who in their retirement years wish to relive their youth exuberance (stupidity).

Anyway, gotta get to bed so that I can go to work and earn some money that can go towards cleaning the parks and waste of the 99% that were part of occupy Seattle.


Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:44 am
Profile WWW
Powered By Hate
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm
Posts: 7578
Location: Torrington, CT
Post Re: occupy wall st
I think most people that are part of any protests are odd or don't know what they're talking about. It doesn't mean that OWS isn't a necessary movement or won't pick up steam (though it can very well fizzle off, who the hell knows). In NYC there were plenty of legitimate poor. Your post seems tonedeaf as hell honestly.

_________________
It's my lucky crack pipe.


Last edited by Tyler on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:08 am
Profile
Powered By Hate
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm
Posts: 7578
Location: Torrington, CT
Post Re: occupy wall st
Mannyisthebest wrote:
Lol it does not matter about support for the Tea party, its about their members showing up.

I highly doubt the OWS people will have an effect on Congressional races in the suburban/rural areas.

OWS will have an effect on the presidential election.


I agree with these points, but it's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there's the potential effect of political winds changing from things nascent now.

_________________
It's my lucky crack pipe.


Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:09 am
Profile
Powered By Hate
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm
Posts: 7578
Location: Torrington, CT
Post Re: occupy wall st
Oh, and wasn't there polling that showed most OWS protesters were not anti-capitalist? That doesn't sound too Marxist to me. Like Marxists have been a serious contingent in the US anyway...

_________________
It's my lucky crack pipe.


Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:11 am
Profile
Forum General
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm
Posts: 8636
Location: Toronto, Canada
Post Re: occupy wall st
It is likley that many of the OWS protestors are not radicals who went violent revolution.


However the ones we see interviewed, give the movement a bad name to older people.

Here are some comments from protesters here in Toronto.

"Yeah I worked at a Deli and I did not like it, so I quit and joined this movement, to yeah like change the world"

"we should redistribute the wealth so poor become can become rich"

I think the movement will only last if its gets political. I think in the US it will last, but I do not think it will last the winter here in Canada. There are problems here, but its not desperate.

Also the Tea party had very large protests as well especially in Washington in 2009. I think as the Emperor says in Star Wars "Do not underestimate the power of the Dark Side!".
Democrats and Obama underestimated the power of the tea party in 2010, and get whipped.
If they think people will vote for Obama just because the Republicans are bad in 2012, its not going to be pretty. I already hear Democrat strategists on TV saying "oh people will realize and come back".

Obama is going to have go out and fight to get reelected. I think he can win by going negative, as I highly doubt many are going to pay attention if Obama tries to act like Jesus Christ again :funny:.

I remember the 2008 election, I was mesmerized by his words and thought he was truly a man above politics and pettiness. :pinch:

_________________
The Dark Prince

Image


Last edited by Mannyisthebest on Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:40 am
Profile WWW
A very honest-hearted fellow
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:02 pm
Posts: 4767
Post Re: occupy wall st
Tyler wrote:
Oh, and wasn't there polling that showed most OWS protesters were not anti-capitalist? That doesn't sound too Marxist to me. Like Marxists have been a serious contingent in the US anyway...

I am sure a massive portion of Republicans claim that they are not racist, yet you label them as racist anyway. Political ignorance is a huge problem in the U.S. and I suspect that many in OWS simply do not understand what capitalism means--or for that matter Marxism--whether they adhere to tenants of it or not.

Marxists are not a serious contingent in the U.S., but that doesn't mean that they do not exist nor does it mean that they have not saw OWS as an opportunity to come out of the woodwork.

From Doug Schoen's WSJ article yesterday http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204479504576637082965745362.html:

Quote:
[N]early one-third (31%) would support violence to advance their agenda....

...

Sixty-five percent say that government has a moral responsibility to guarantee all citizens access to affordable health care, a college education, and a secure retirement—no matter the cost. By a large margin (77%-22%), they support raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans, but 58% oppose raising taxes for everybody, with only 36% in favor. And by a close margin, protesters are divided on whether the bank bailouts were necessary (49%) or unnecessary (51%).


Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:47 am
Profile WWW
Forum General
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm
Posts: 8636
Location: Toronto, Canada
Post Re: occupy wall st
Quote:
Sixty-five percent say that government has a moral responsibility to guarantee all citizens access to affordable health care, a college education, and a secure retirement—no matter the cost.


Lol if Americans think they can get such things by only increasing taxes on 1% of the population, they are a bunch of idiots.

I am surprised 50% though the bank bailouts, should have happened. :funny:

_________________
The Dark Prince

Image


Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:59 am
Profile WWW
Powered By Hate
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm
Posts: 7578
Location: Torrington, CT
Post Re: occupy wall st
Caius wrote:
I am sure a massive portion of Republicans claim that they are not racist, yet you label them as racist anyway.


I don't think Republicans are inherently racist, or majority racist, if you were implying that. But racism is a LOT more nebulous and a LOT more common than being a Marxist. Or a crypto-Marxist. After all, you don't have to wear a Klan hood and be dragging blacks by the neck from the back of pickup trucks with ropes to be a racist. If you think there's even say 1% of people in the US that are anti-capitalists looking to create a worker's state after a proletarian revolution, I think you're paranoid as hell. By the way, there's a shitload of Ron Paul supporters in the protests too. I wouldn't say socialism and capitalism are inherently in conflict either. The developed world doesn't just consist of Anglo-Saxon economies.

Quote:
From Doug Schoen's WSJ article yesterday http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204479504576637082965745362.html:

[N]early one-third (31%) would support violence to advance their agenda....


Under what circumstances? I bet lots of people anywhere of any ideology would support violence to advance their agenda in some or more circumstances.

Kind of a tangent here, but I think there's kind of a hypocrisy here because there's a genuine anti-establishment mentality at OWS. There were plenty of armed people at Tea Party rallies, after all. It's their right to do that if they aren't criminals or maniacs, even if it just seems skeevy, paranoid and compensatory to me (and potentially alarming for a lot of people, I guess). I bet if leftist African-Americans started packing at rallies to fix the ghetto the Second Amendment worship on the right would start to dissipate. Actually, any leftists, now that I think about it.

Quote:
...

Sixty-five percent say that government has a moral responsibility to guarantee all citizens access to affordable health care, a college education, and a secure retirement—no matter the cost. By a large margin (77%-22%), they support raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans, but 58% oppose raising taxes for everybody, with only 36% in favor. And by a close margin, protesters are divided on whether the bank bailouts were necessary (49%) or unnecessary (51%).
[/quote]

Is this supposed to prove anything? A moral responsibility doesn't mean shit about practicality. It can easily mean that the system has failed to a semi-permanent degree and that's why people are pissed. I'm not going to speak for a whole group though.

Also, I love how Schoen lies and spins through his fucking teeth about the real polling numbers. The polling numbers prove this the most prevailing narrative is about dissatisfaction and wanting a more direct voice versus plutonomic interests, rather than "radical redistribution of wealth" (hell, there are more libertarians in the crowd than people who said that was the main goal, and more people advocating a flat tax that'd fucking make shit worse for a left-populist cause):
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/99818396/Oc ... treet-Poll

Seriously, he has such an obvious ax to grind and a feeling to be relevant it isn't even funny. OH NO, CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE! It's not like that hasn't been a common tactic used by figures and movements considered radical and dangerous in the past but now lionized and whitewashed...oh wait.

_________________
It's my lucky crack pipe.


Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:28 pm
Profile
Forum General
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm
Posts: 8636
Location: Toronto, Canada
Post Re: occupy wall st
True but American political system is quite democratic, its the people in charge who are at fault.

Having one party control the Presidency and another the legislature, happens in other countries but then the division of powers come in, and then minority parties can hold up everything.

Then there recall elections and plebiscites for everything and almost everyone gets elected.


Here in Canada, a majority govt would be a dictatorship by American standards. :funny:

If a party wins a majority of seats, it is allowed to dictate all the legislation and is about 99.9% guaranteed to pass it. The govt controls the executive but all the Cabinet members must be elected figures (well some exceptions). The ruling party has full control over who is appointed to all positions including the judiciary, however the process in reality is quite fair.
Frankly, I think Obama looks here and says "Oh I wish I had that power"

Question period is where all the fun happens, seeing the Prime Minister and the cabinet get asked very tough and harsh questions.

It would be soooo hilarious, if the President would have to answer questions to Congress. :funny:

Here is an article, that talks about all this.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/08/05/the- ... democracy/

_________________
The Dark Prince

Image


Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:11 pm
Profile WWW
Powered By Hate
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm
Posts: 7578
Location: Torrington, CT
Post Re: occupy wall st
It's not really democratic when only half the voting-age population bothers to turn up. I mean, it is, but it's an ineffective and contented form of democracy. That's extremely unhealthy. Why voting isn't compulsory always struck me as odd.

I blame the public in general as much as anyone else. They disengaged and alienated themselves from each other.

_________________
It's my lucky crack pipe.


Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:44 am
Profile
A very honest-hearted fellow
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:02 pm
Posts: 4767
Post Re: occupy wall st
Tyler wrote:
It's not really democratic when only half the voting-age population bothers to turn up. I mean, it is, but it's an ineffective and contented form of democracy. That's extremely unhealthy. Why voting isn't compulsory always struck me as odd.

I blame the public in general as much as anyone else. They disengaged and alienated themselves from each other.

Forcing someone to vote always struck me as odd and antithetical to freedom. What is the point in forcing someone to vote who has no idea who candidates are or what the issues are? If they recognize their own rational ignorance, isn't it better for them to abstain rather than possibly skewing results in favor of a candidate who they know absolutely nothing about?

I do not follow American Idol at all. Would a better singer be selected if I was forced to vote for one of the singers based on zero knowledge as to their skill and talent?


Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:45 am
Profile WWW
Forum General
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm
Posts: 8636
Location: Toronto, Canada
Post Re: occupy wall st
Quote:
It's not really democratic when only half the voting-age population bothers to turn up. I mean, it is, but it's an ineffective and contented form of democracy. That's extremely unhealthy. Why voting isn't compulsory always struck me as odd.

I blame the public in general as much as anyone else. They disengaged and alienated themselves from each other.


Turnout rates in Canada are awful as well.

Around 61% in the last Federal election, about the same as your last election.


Around only 40-60% in Provincial elections and city elections are around 40%.

_________________
The Dark Prince

Image


Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:59 am
Profile WWW
Powered By Hate
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm
Posts: 7578
Location: Torrington, CT
Post Re: occupy wall st
Caius wrote:
Tyler wrote:
It's not really democratic when only half the voting-age population bothers to turn up. I mean, it is, but it's an ineffective and contented form of democracy. That's extremely unhealthy. Why voting isn't compulsory always struck me as odd.

I blame the public in general as much as anyone else. They disengaged and alienated themselves from each other.

Forcing someone to vote always struck me as odd and antithetical to freedom. What is the point in forcing someone to vote who has no idea who candidates are or what the issues are? If they recognize their own rational ignorance, isn't it better for them to abstain rather than possibly skewing results in favor of a candidate who they know absolutely nothing about?

I do not follow American Idol at all. Would a better singer be selected if I was forced to vote for one of the singers based on zero knowledge as to their skill and talent?


Hey, I think torture is antithetical to freedom. That's the thing: it would create a civic environment because people would have to get up off their ass every two years, so they better try and pay attention. And civic engagement isn't American Idol, despite the GOP debates the other night being a fucking circus. This is shit that affects all of us.

I also wonder if community service should be logged in for people every five years or so...

_________________
It's my lucky crack pipe.


Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:59 pm
Profile
Powered By Hate
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm
Posts: 7578
Location: Torrington, CT
Post Re: occupy wall st
Magnus wrote:
Tyler wrote:
It's not really democratic when only half the voting-age population bothers to turn up. I mean, it is, but it's an ineffective and contented form of democracy. That's extremely unhealthy. Why voting isn't compulsory always struck me as odd.

I blame the public in general as much as anyone else. They disengaged and alienated themselves from each other.


To be fair though, voter turnout actually is much better than people give it credit for.

Keep in mind that this country used to have age, gender, and race limits on voting that really didn't make it a democratic system. The age limit is still there but much fair today. And if you look at voting eligible population turnout rate (which is more accurate because voting-age population), the last 2008 election was the highest percentage (around 61%) presidential election since the 21st Amendment passed.

I'd actually say that we have more of a representative democracy today than in the past. It's not perfect, but it isn't as drastically bad as some make it out to be.


These are good points, but the sad part is that the demographics actually newly eligible to vote are not taking advantage of it perhaps due to apathy and former disenfranchisement. Also, I think your numbers are off, the number was 57-58%. That's for the voting age population, maybe you're using eligible voters. It's good compared to the last few decades, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turn ... _elections

This is actually an interesting article, because it shows that crisis turns up turnout. The problem with optional voting is that it allows the populace to become corrupted and contented.

Though, alas, the turnout for the 2010 midterms was as low as they've ever been since the 30s, if I recall correctly, so my original point stands and I guess the crisis thing looks a little off there. Maybe we're just totally succumbing to apathy. I hope not though.

_________________
It's my lucky crack pipe.


Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:10 pm
Profile
Powered By Hate
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm
Posts: 7578
Location: Torrington, CT
Post Re: occupy wall st
Yeah, though it doesn't really matter I guess. Just semantic nit-picking on my part. Our turnout rates are still absolutely pathetic compared to almost all western democracies.

_________________
It's my lucky crack pipe.


Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:08 pm
Profile
Forum General
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm
Posts: 8636
Location: Toronto, Canada
Post Re: occupy wall st
IT appears the more urban an area, the lower the turnout.

That is how it is in Canada.

_________________
The Dark Prince

Image


Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:27 pm
Profile WWW
Powered By Hate
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm
Posts: 7578
Location: Torrington, CT
Post Re: occupy wall st
The poor, the less educated and minorities tend to have lower turn-out. I imagine with urban areas it depends exactly where, as they tend to have both the richest and the poorest. And since suburbs have the most rapidly growing population of poor now, who knows what that could look like in twenty years.

_________________
It's my lucky crack pipe.


Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:17 pm
Profile
Forum General
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm
Posts: 8636
Location: Toronto, Canada
Post Re: occupy wall st
The suburbs are growing poor as they are growing more diverse and cities are growing.


Many areas that are now suburbs are now are older neighbours close to big cities.

Here in Toronto the older suburbs are getting poor and the suburbs away from the city are getting richer.

_________________
The Dark Prince

Image


Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:53 pm
Profile WWW
Powered By Hate
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm
Posts: 7578
Location: Torrington, CT
Post Re: occupy wall st
I'm not even talking inner-ring suburbs. Even many of those upper-middle class suburbs are newly poor. The housing crisis turned half of the west into foreclosure.

_________________
It's my lucky crack pipe.


Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:19 pm
Profile
Forum General
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm
Posts: 8636
Location: Toronto, Canada
Post Re: occupy wall st
Oh I see,


Yeah its quite strange that suburban neighbourhoods exactly like the one I live in are full of abandoned houses in the American West.

Even so in Canada, many people move out of the inner suburbs to the new ones but are still poorer compared to the people who already live here. Here in the outer suburbs, the older areas like 20 years old have a lot of poorer people compared to when they were built.

The rich people keep moving into the newer houses further and further away from the city.

Anyways, we are going off into a discussion about the evolving nature of Suburbia in North America.

Anyways, the movement has not gotten much attention this week. Its like fizzled out, maybe we will hear something again on the weekend.

I do not know, I work in the financial services field in a entry position (office, and part time boo!!) and want to join the senior level. A lot of the people are very professional and but very competitive individuals but its not like everyone is Michael Douglas in Wall Street. If there are people like that, they are not acting like that up here on Bay Street or if they are acting like such, they are doing so in a private manner.

_________________
The Dark Prince

Image


Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:37 pm
Profile WWW
Powered By Hate
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm
Posts: 7578
Location: Torrington, CT
Post Re: occupy wall st
I suspect you'll hear more on weekends. Honestly this should have started in the spring. I worry about the movement fizzling out.

The rich in America are returning to cities. Have been for some time. At least the young ones are.

_________________
It's my lucky crack pipe.


Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:18 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.