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Tyler
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm Posts: 7578 Location: Torrington, CT
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Baw. I admitted it's flawed. What do you want me to? Do you think this bill is in the good interest of cutting the deficit or is there obviously far more at work? And you still haven't done a rejoinder to the Kochs thing I rebuffed.
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Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:37 pm |
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Krem
Cream of the Crop
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:04 pm Posts: 2035 Location: Citizens Bank Park
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
It is about cutting the deficit today AND cutting future spending. To say that spending only matters in the short term is extremely short-sighted, considering how underfunded public employee pensions are, among other things. And yes, it's about other things. You can't innovate in the public sector when you have the union opposing proposals such as merit pay and school vouchers.
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Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:50 pm |
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Tyler
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm Posts: 7578 Location: Torrington, CT
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
See, all of those are fair points.
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Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:46 pm |
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Tyler
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm Posts: 7578 Location: Torrington, CT
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
I almost used this term, but it's not 100%. Maybe at a more broad level by certain elements. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast
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Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:39 pm |
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Groucho
Extraordinary
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:30 pm Posts: 12096 Location: Stroudsburg, PA
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Yow, I've been busy and haven't kept up with this thread, sorry.
Don't have anything new to add, though -- and it appears neither do most of you! heh. Hate to just keep repeating the same arguments over and over again.
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Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:53 pm |
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Krem
Cream of the Crop
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:04 pm Posts: 2035 Location: Citizens Bank Park
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
You can start by sourcing your assertion that Wisconsin students do better on tests than others.
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Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:31 pm |
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Groucho
Extraordinary
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:30 pm Posts: 12096 Location: Stroudsburg, PA
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Krem wrote: You can start by sourcing your assertion that Wisconsin students do better on tests than others. OK let me go back and see what you're referring to; I didn't read the entire thread. EDIT: Yep, I was suckered in by the unions. the stats had been all over the blogs, and I just assumed if everyone was saying it, it was probably true. I'm usually better than that. Politifact points out the truth: http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/sta ... -scores-v/Apparently it's mostly a matter of (a) using old data and (b) interpreting the data in such a way to make it look better than it is. The numbers still seem to indicate that Wisconsin still is high and the other states low, though -- just not as extreme as portrayed.
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Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:36 pm |
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Darth Indiana Bond
007
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:43 pm Posts: 11009 Location: Wouldn't you like to know
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
All this talk about unions reminds me of an old classic Simpsons episode: http://www.iwatchsimpsonsonline.com/s04 ... ringfield/Maybe not the same boat, but like teachers in public unions, working at a power plant does have a direct impact on the community at large.
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Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:57 am |
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Tyler
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm Posts: 7578 Location: Torrington, CT
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
They're trying to pull this in Ohio now, I hear.
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Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:24 pm |
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Krem
Cream of the Crop
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:04 pm Posts: 2035 Location: Citizens Bank Park
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Groucho wrote: Krem wrote: You can start by sourcing your assertion that Wisconsin students do better on tests than others. OK let me go back and see what you're referring to; I didn't read the entire thread. EDIT: Yep, I was suckered in by the unions. the stats had been all over the blogs, and I just assumed if everyone was saying it, it was probably true. I'm usually better than that. Politifact points out the truth: http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/sta ... -scores-v/Apparently it's mostly a matter of (a) using old data and (b) interpreting the data in such a way to make it look better than it is. The numbers still seem to indicate that Wisconsin still is high and the other states low, though -- just not as extreme as portrayed. Here's a rebuttal of all these educational stats. http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/20 ... ers-1.htmlIn short - Texas has a much higher minority population than Wisconsin, which explains why it lags. When you compare across demographics, Texas comes out ahead (whites in TX do better than whites in WI, same is true for blacks and hispanics). Note that I'm not saying that this has anything to do with unionization rates, just want to lay this argument to rest.
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Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:04 pm |
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Tyler
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm Posts: 7578 Location: Torrington, CT
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Does anyone else think Walker's posturing for ego's sake/a run in 2012/2016?
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Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:55 pm |
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Groucho
Extraordinary
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:30 pm Posts: 12096 Location: Stroudsburg, PA
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Tyler wrote: Does anyone else think Walker's posturing for ego's sake/a run in 2012/2016? He's pandering to his core constituency. However, the core constituency is maybe 30% of the voting public, as we can see from the latest polls.
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Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:34 pm |
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Tyler
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm Posts: 7578 Location: Torrington, CT
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Yeah, he shot his political capital. Hubris up the ass.
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Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:36 pm |
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Bradley Witherberry
Extraordinary
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:13 pm Posts: 15197 Location: Planet Xatar
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
20 lies (and counting) told by Gov. WalkerQuote: Walker: Public employees are more richly compensated than their public sector counterparts.
The truth: According to the Economic Policy Institute, wages and salaries of state and local employees are lower than those for private sector employees with comparable earnings determinants such as education and work experience. State workers typically are under-compensated by 8.2% in Wisconsin. ___________________________________________________________________ "Education is the silver bullet. Education is everything. We don't need little changes. We need gigantic revolutionary changes. Schools should be palaces. Competition for the best teachers should be fierce. They should be getting six-figure salaries. Schools should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge for its citizens, just like national defense. That is my position. I just haven't figured out how to do it yet."--Sam Seaborn, fictional character from TV show The West Wing.
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Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:08 am |
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Caius
A very honest-hearted fellow
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:02 pm Posts: 4767
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Bradley Witherberry wrote: 20 lies (and counting) told by Gov. WalkerQuote: Walker: Public employees are more richly compensated than their public sector counterparts.
The truth: According to the Economic Policy Institute, wages and salaries of state and local employees are lower than those for private sector employees with comparable earnings determinants such as education and work experience. State workers typically are under-compensated by 8.2% in Wisconsin. I skimmed some of the study from EPI. It failed to consider costs of working in the private sector. For example, being a doctor or lawyer in the private sector (which the study calls "professionals") means that they have a total compensation package of $226k yearly whereas the public sector version has a total package of $110K yearly. Doctors and lawyers in the private sector have to use this compensation to fund things like malpractice insurance and hiring employees. It also only compares full time workers and excludes all of those that are not full time. I would guess that there are many more underemployed workers in the private sector than the public, just a hunch, and this would skew the results towards the result achieved by this study. I also do not believe that public workers get less time off for vacations than do private sector workers when every federal holiday around here results in my local offices and schools being closed and I find myself always having to work those days. The study itself notes this: Quote: We observed, however, that public employees work fewer hours, particularly employees with bachelor’s, master’s, and professional degrees...[a]n earnings equation controlling for work hours of full-time employees demonstrates that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less than comparable private sector workers working comparable annual hours. Finally, there is a reason people go into government work: JOB SECURITY!
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Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:25 am |
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Krem
Cream of the Crop
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:04 pm Posts: 2035 Location: Citizens Bank Park
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Liberals don't lie; it's called 'nuance'. Learn to love it.
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Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:24 pm |
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Tyler
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm Posts: 7578 Location: Torrington, CT
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Ah, so is it still about the budget?
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Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:17 pm |
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Krem
Cream of the Crop
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:04 pm Posts: 2035 Location: Citizens Bank Park
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Tyler wrote: Ah, so is it still about the budget? Yes, it is.
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Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:10 pm |
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Tyler
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm Posts: 7578 Location: Torrington, CT
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Is it the primary reason?
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Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:13 pm |
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Krem
Cream of the Crop
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:04 pm Posts: 2035 Location: Citizens Bank Park
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Are you going to charge Scott Walker with a thought crime?
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Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:30 pm |
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Tyler
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm Posts: 7578 Location: Torrington, CT
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Just answer the question.
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Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:35 pm |
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Krem
Cream of the Crop
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:04 pm Posts: 2035 Location: Citizens Bank Park
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
I'm not Scott Walker, nor am I republican lawmaker from Wisconsin, so I'm not qualified to answer that questions.
What I do know is that the proposed law addresses budget deficits both today and in the future.
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Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:37 pm |
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Tyler
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm Posts: 7578 Location: Torrington, CT
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
There's other ways to infer motivation, but for now, screw that. Are there reasonable alternatives to addressing it?
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Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:46 pm |
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Krem
Cream of the Crop
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:04 pm Posts: 2035 Location: Citizens Bank Park
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Are you seriously expecting me to come up with a solution for Wisconsin's budget woes in this thread?
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Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:15 pm |
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Tyler
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm Posts: 7578 Location: Torrington, CT
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Re: Wisconsin Protests
Nah, I don't think any of us have the time or insanity to dig through all of that. I just want to know if there's something else at work that really should be a more top priority in the buj, and you're a smart guy.
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Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:39 pm |
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