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 House passes health care bill on close vote 
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Indiana Jones IV

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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
Krem wrote:
Tuukka wrote:
Krem wrote:
Don't is not the same thing as can't.


Erm, how does that change the point in any way? Or are you saying that military *could* operate equally as well if it were a commercial company?

You tried to claim that *every* other industry can work with a profit motive. Obviously this is not the case, and military is just one of many examples. So the basis of your claim was incorrect.

No it's not. Private military exists and it's a $100 billion+ industry.

Still, most military spending is done by governments, but not because military cannot function without a profit motive.


So are you trying to say that PMC's should run the American military? That the tax-based USA military should be ended?

What about privatized police? What about a 100% privatized school system? These are all "industries" just like healthcare is an industry.

You are trying to claim that "Funny how every other industry can do well with a profit motive, yet health care somehow can't", but army, police and school system simply do NOT work well without tax money. I'm sure we can come up with several other industries that absolutely *must* have tax money to succesfully work for the benefit of the nation as a whole, but those were the most obvious examples that came to my mind.


Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:20 pm
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
Tuukka wrote:
So are you trying to say that PMC's should run the American military? That the tax-based USA military should be ended?

What about privatized police? What about a 100% privatized school system? These are all "industries" just like healthcare is an industry.

The point other people are trying to make is that a privatized healthcare doesn't work, and doesn't provide a kind of infrastructure that a nation needs. Just like a privatized army, police and school system don't work for the benefit of the nation.

I'm not making any value judgments here, just pointing out a logical flaw in the argument that hospitals cannot be profit-motivated.

All the industries you list can be privatized, and in fact there are many examples of private militaries, police forces and schools. Whether or not they should be is a policy decision, and I'm not going to get sucked into the discussion about that. However, basing that policy decision on the fact that hospitals can't be run for profit is what I have an issue with.

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Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:31 pm
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Indiana Jones IV

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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
Krem wrote:
Tuukka wrote:
So are you trying to say that PMC's should run the American military? That the tax-based USA military should be ended?

What about privatized police? What about a 100% privatized school system? These are all "industries" just like healthcare is an industry.

The point other people are trying to make is that a privatized healthcare doesn't work, and doesn't provide a kind of infrastructure that a nation needs. Just like a privatized army, police and school system don't work for the benefit of the nation.

I'm not making any value judgments here, just pointing out a logical flaw in the argument that hospitals cannot be profit-motivated.

All the industries you list can be privatized, and in fact there are many examples of private militaries, police forces and schools. Whether or not they should be is a policy decision, and I'm not going to get sucked into the discussion about that. However, basing that policy decision on the fact that hospitals can't be run for profit is what I have an issue with.


*Anything* can be privatized. That's a no-brainer. But the issue was whether certain industries can do WELL, if they are privatized.

I'm bringing back again what you said:

"Funny how every other industry can do well with a profit motive, yet health care somehow can't"

The thing is, army, police and school system can't do WELL, if they are simply run with a profit motive. They simply don't work anymore - They don't anymore fulfill the role we expect from them.

Yes, there are PMC's, private police, private schools... In countries that have socialized healthcare, there are typically also private hospitals and private doctors for people who can afford to pay some extra. The two are not mutually exlusive. But we are talking about how the main bulk of those industries is handled: Either socialized or privatized.

Do you really genuinely believe that American army, police and school system would work *well* if they would not get tax money anymore, and they would be privatized? Don't you think that the quality of those industries would decrease? That the safety of Americans would decrease? Don't you think that American economy would suffer greatly in the future if the public school system would stop building the basis for the know-how competence of future workers and leaders?

In short, do you support the privatization of army, police and school system just as much as you support the privatization of healthcare? After all, according to you they would all function *well* if they would be simply profit-motivated.


Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:03 pm
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
Tuukka wrote:
*Anything* can be privatized. That's a no-brainer. But the issue was whether certain industries can do WELL, if they are privatized.

I'm bringing back again what you said:

"Funny how every other industry can do well with a profit motive, yet health care somehow can't"

The thing is, army, police and school system can't do WELL, if they are simply run with a profit motive. They simply don't work anymore - They don't anymore fulfill the role we expect from them.


You are basing this assumption on what, exactly?
Tuukka wrote:
Yes, there are PMC's, private police, private schools... In countries that have socialized healthcare, there are typically also private hospitals and private doctors for people who can afford to pay some extra. The two are not mutually exlusive. But we are talking about how the main bulk of those industries is handled: Either socialized or privatized.

Do you really genuinely believe that American army, police and school system would work *well* if they would not get tax money anymore, and they would be privatized? Don't you think that the quality of those industries would decrease? That the safety of Americans would decrease? Don't you think that American economy would suffer greatly in the future if the public school system would stop building the basis for the know-how competence of future workers and leaders?

In short, do you support the privatization of army, police and school system just as much as you support the privatization of healthcare? After all, according to you they would all function *well* if they would be simply profit-motivated.

You really want to get into this, don't you?

Yes, I do support all three. However, my support for the privatization is not based on their ability to function better as profit-motivated entities. To me that is absolutely irrelevant. What matters to me is the state's ability to coerce its citizens to fund things they otherwise wouldn't. This is one of the fundamental principles of the libertarian philosophy.

But it's got nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is whether or not private hospitals can be run well.

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Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:41 pm
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
Krem wrote:
Tuukka wrote:
So are you trying to say that PMC's should run the American military? That the tax-based USA military should be ended?

What about privatized police? What about a 100% privatized school system? These are all "industries" just like healthcare is an industry.

The point other people are trying to make is that a privatized healthcare doesn't work, and doesn't provide a kind of infrastructure that a nation needs. Just like a privatized army, police and school system don't work for the benefit of the nation.

I'm not making any value judgments here, just pointing out a logical flaw in the argument that hospitals cannot be profit-motivated.

All the industries you list can be privatized, and in fact there are many examples of private militaries, police forces and schools. Whether or not they should be is a policy decision, and I'm not going to get sucked into the discussion about that. However, basing that policy decision on the fact that hospitals can't be run for profit is what I have an issue with.


Of course they can be run for profit... they are now after all. But it brings many moral and economic issues that would be non-existent if they weren't

With that said I can accept profit run hospitals because I know the government is light years away from making a change like that... it was hard enough to get this new plan in. I would not call profit run hospitals and the current system as undoubtable a wrong as say, Medicare.

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Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:48 pm
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
Krem wrote:
Shack wrote:
But while Im on this tangent, thats the real issue and way to fix this... Take hospitals out of the profit sector. Almost any system involving hospitals and profit is bound to go bad, because hospitals make more money the more they treat you, and they treat you more if you stay sick. Also they have too much info on prices and procedures that only THEY know. How are we supposed to say how much that ER trip really cost, or how many appointments we really need. Theyre the doctors, they know more than us, and we trust them with our lives. And when hospitals are run on profit, this is all too easy to exploit. When business ethics is counted on to treat peoples lives, evil shit is unavoidable


Funny how every other industry can do well with a profit motive, yet health care somehow can't.

There's a good way to give people the incentive to 'shop around' for health care, if you will: raise the deductibles on private plans, and reimburse people for the higher deductibles with a Health Savings Account. This was outlined by the CEO of Whole Foods, which already uses this scheme, and is able to save a lot on health insurance costs.


I draw a line with healthcare, not only because it has human lives at stake, but on a theoretical level the goal is opposite from most industries

In a restaurant the point is to have people come in as much as possible. While in a hospital the point should be for people to NOT come in as much.

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Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:04 pm
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Indiana Jones IV

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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
Shack wrote:
Krem wrote:
Shack wrote:
But while Im on this tangent, thats the real issue and way to fix this... Take hospitals out of the profit sector. Almost any system involving hospitals and profit is bound to go bad, because hospitals make more money the more they treat you, and they treat you more if you stay sick. Also they have too much info on prices and procedures that only THEY know. How are we supposed to say how much that ER trip really cost, or how many appointments we really need. Theyre the doctors, they know more than us, and we trust them with our lives. And when hospitals are run on profit, this is all too easy to exploit. When business ethics is counted on to treat peoples lives, evil shit is unavoidable


Funny how every other industry can do well with a profit motive, yet health care somehow can't.

There's a good way to give people the incentive to 'shop around' for health care, if you will: raise the deductibles on private plans, and reimburse people for the higher deductibles with a Health Savings Account. This was outlined by the CEO of Whole Foods, which already uses this scheme, and is able to save a lot on health insurance costs.


I draw a line with healthcare, not only because it has human lives at stake, but on a theoretical level the goal is opposite from most industries

In a restaurant the point is to have people come in as much as possible. While in a hospital the point should be for people to NOT come in as much.

Well I also draw the line with the military..since the President of the United States is the head of the military it can not be wholly privatized or even mostly privatized without rewriting the constitution.

The use of mercenaries is a different story but that is always an issue of debate.

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Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:13 pm
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
This is the most on-point thread that I could find. Very excited for tomorrow. Like Christmas and the Super Bowl and heroin rolled into one.


Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:13 pm
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
I'm guessing it will be overturned.

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Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:06 am
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
Darth Indiana Bond wrote:
I'm guessing it will be overturned.

By Cuddy.

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Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:44 am
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
If the Supreme Court rules that it's unconstitutional for people to have to pay for other's health care, can I stop paying my tax dollars towards a military that illegally kills people in countries we're not even officially at war with?


Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:00 am
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
lol I think Barrack Obama has him self to blame.
People asked for economic recovery and he wastes 2 years on health care.


Likely goes down as one of the biggest presidential blunders in recent memory...


In the end I think around 75% of the original bill will stay.

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Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:27 am
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
It was definitely naive of him to assume Republicans wouldn't try and stop all progress on the issue to make him look inept in order to regain power, but health care reform needed to happen. The stimulus and financial regulatory reform (not to mention buying out the auto industry) all went towards short-term economic recovery but the only way to balance our budget is tackle the ballooning cost of health care - and for that matter, energy policy too.

Now I don't think Obama expected such fierce and coordinated Republican obstructionism on virtually every front. Perhaps it was naive, but it's also unprecedented. The debate on health care reform didn't need to go on for fourteen months, but the way it was dragged out certainly worked to the advantage of those who have sought to make health care reform Obama's Waterloo.


Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:38 am
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
see also Unpopular mandate: Why do politicians reverse their positions?


Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:07 am
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
I think the Chief writes and upholds the mandate but waters it down, which is the reason he joins. 6-3. Sotomayor writes and upholds the Medicare expansion probably 8-1 or 7-2. Only Thomas is a for sure vote against on 10th Amendment grounds. Maybe also Scalia and Alito. Anti-Injunction Act will not apply and this could be like 8-1 with only Breyer in dissent.

The rest will be fractured pluralities.


Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:25 am
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote

I guess people cannot think about things and reverse their opinion upon such reflection? Politicians changed their opinion about Iraq and Vietnam. I guess they were wrong.


Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:31 am
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
At the risk of sounding *gasp* presumptuous, did you actually read the article? Or just the hypertext link?


Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:42 am
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
Assuming you and whoever else is reading have not, I guess I'll play along.

What makes the individual mandate different from the wars in Vietnam and Iraq? Well, besides the fact that only the latter involved killing thousands of people, the individual mandate doesn't exist yet. Where our military invasions of those countries took thousands of lives lost and many bungled operations (like the WMDs that were nowhere to be found) in order for people to realize these wars were Bad Ideas... The individual mandate hasn't even happened yet. There's only speculation, not evidence, that the mandate is unconstitutional.

Yet before the individual mandate became a cornerstone of 'Obamacare' it was a cornerstone of Republican health care reform. It wasn't just Romney in Massachusetts, but the Heritage Foundation who proposed it as an alternative to Democrat's single-payer or employer-mandate plan.

So it seems to me that conservative politicians are crying unconstitutional (over and over and over again) because Obama co-opted their plan in an attempt at bipartisan compromise. Do you think that's incorrect, and an individual mandate was always unconstitutional? If so, why did Republicans support something that was unconstitutional all along?


Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:48 am
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
MovieDude wrote:
Assuming you and whoever else is reading have not, I guess I'll play along.

What makes the individual mandate different from the wars in Vietnam and Iraq? Well, besides the fact that only the latter involved killing thousands of people, the individual mandate doesn't exist yet. Where our military invasions of those countries took thousands of lives lost and many bungled operations (like the WMDs that were nowhere to be found) in order for people to realize these wars were Bad Ideas... The individual mandate hasn't even happened yet. There's only speculation, not evidence, that the mandate is unconstitutional.

Yet before the individual mandate became a cornerstone of 'Obamacare' it was a cornerstone of Republican health care reform. It wasn't just Romney in Massachusetts, but the Heritage Foundation who proposed it as an alternative to Democrat's single-payer or employer-mandate plan.

So it seems to me that conservative politicians are crying unconstitutional (over and over and over again) because Obama co-opted their plan in an attempt at bipartisan compromise. Do you think that's incorrect, and an individual mandate was always unconstitutional? If so, why did Republicans support something that was unconstitutional all along?

I did read the article and I stand by what I said.

I think the Individual Mandate was always unconstitutional and always will be, barring an amendment. Just like I think Wickard was also wrong (and unconstitutional). Just like I think, and you think, that Plessy was wrongly decided. Just like I think Raich was wrongly decided and Morrison and Lopez correctly decided.

For your second paragraph, are you making a standing argument or do you honestly believe that the individual mandate is only unconstitutional or constitutional if it does not work? If a state passes a law that says it no longer need warrants to search a person's home, are you saying that is neither constitutional or unconstitutional until someone has their home searched without a warrant? If you are making a standing argument, meaning someone must have their home searched in such a manner or actually be forced to purchase health insurance, then I can understand your point. If the point is that either situation might or might not be constitutional, depending on when it is enforced, then frankly have no clue what you are talking about.

I guess Griswold was wrongly decided since the state of Connecticut had not enforced its contraceptives laws for many decades?


Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:33 am
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
Lol I was never against Health Care reform but I think it was the wrong time to do this.
I think many likley liked parts of the reform but just wanted to see Obama fail.

Well I think the decision shows that the court is not as divided as we think.

2012 election now just got nasty... :zonks: :zonks:

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Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:01 am
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
I think this will not be a huge factor in the election. Might be a slight Romney aid, but not a lot. Still think economy will dominate and still think Obama will win. Around a 60% likelihood.


Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:09 pm
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
However he has to win by a big margin in 2012, or else he else the GOP will be able to stonewall till 2016...

If he just wins GOP will likley still be engergized.

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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
Caius wrote:
I think this will not be a huge factor in the election. Might be a slight Romney aid, but not a lot. Still think economy will dominate and still think Obama will win. Around a 60% likelihood.


Most people who hate Obamacare already were never going to vote for Obama. Not sure this will have a great impact on the election.

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Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:31 pm
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
STEVE ROGERS wrote:
Rev wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

Quote:
WASHINGTON – [size=150]In a victory for President Barack Obama, the Democratic-controlled House narrowly passed landmark health care legislation Saturday night to expand coverage to tens of millions who lack it and place tough new restrictions on the insurance industry. Republican opposition was nearly unanimous.

...



:cheer:


http://www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/show ... p?t=701155

Say Goodbye to the freedom in this country you Obama loving idiots.. Socialism at it's finest and you think that's Ok??? I mean, I know you hate Bush and all, but come on.. You really think this Healthcare Bill is good???

Damn. If it wasn't for his stupid Hulk call, this man would be on fire.


Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:16 pm
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Post Re: House passes health care bill on close vote
Krem wrote:
Mr. Reynolds wrote:
Please define socialism. That's gonna be my response to anyone who utters the word from now on.

Only because you can't really think of how this bill will be paid for ;)

Exactly. It looks like less young and healthy people are signing up and more old and sick people are signing up. Lots of growth in Medicaid as well.

Good call, Krem (at least so far).


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