How the hell is Shape elitist? A big horror fan maybe, but elitist??

I think that it's every cinema goer's right to say that something sucks, if that's how they feel. In a genre where taste is paramount, you shouldn't have to provide a rationale or full thesis to publically dislike something.

No one would contest someone's right to say that Son of the Mask or Jaws IV "just sucks". The fact that a film is deemed by a majority to be a classic shouldn't put a sudden burden of proof on the film's detractors.

"Classic" status guarantees that people who *want* to be fans of classics (because they think it makes them intellectuals) will be generous to the film, whereas those who root for underdogs (because they like to think of themselves as being free-thinkers or eccentric) will be subconsciously hostile to it. I suspect that only a minority of people will be able to have a genuine reaction to any "classic" film, in cases where the film's reputation hasn't preceded it.

I think the exception might be something like Casablanca, where the classic status works in its favour... you expect one thing, and instead, you end up getting something funny, colourful, vivid, and surprisingly fresh.

Anyone who disagrees with his horror takes, is chastised.

Look, I like Dark Shape. We share a love for horror and that is a good thing. But I know i have a differing opinion when it comes to Kaqne. I just don't get the love for it. And I guess i feel strongly about it.

My bile-spitting Saw 2 review only got a meek reply, althou I was fit to kill after that film so perhaps Shape gave me a free ride.

As for Kane, its another film I haven't seen in years, its solid but more a great building block for modern cinema then a titan that would stand up today. It's around a B for me.

Verry verry goud. 10/10 points.

Still feel this way about the discussion and the film itself. And I've actually seen it four times, holding up ever time. And it's also Charles Schulz's favorite movie!

Better than Saw 4.

rosebud

I LOVE this movie. Every time I watch it I get a little more out of it. It's just flawless from a technical standpoint, and the story is incredibly compelling and interesting. Definitely deserving of its classic status

A

yeah people hate on the godfather, just because it is so well respected...

Watched this again last night. I first saw it about a year ago, and I didn't like it that much. I thought I would perhaps like it more watching it now, and that wasn't the case. I still have the same problems with it. I love the way it's shot, with the deep focus and the high + low angles and the light + shadows. I can agree that it's a technical masterpiece. And Orson Welles' physical transformation is as impressive as his overall performance. But the story doesn't involve me for the entire time. The scenes of young Kane running the newspaper are my favourites, as they're entertaining and fun and feel genuine. Even some of the political stuff works, as Welles is just as magnetic. But the film just gradually gets more and more boring, and, despite my best intentions, I lost interest. The story just isn't epic or compelling enough. I do think the way that the narrative is structured is done very well, but, unfortunately, the story told is far from impressive. And the acting, aside from Welles and Joseph Cotten, is fairly terrible. And don't forget that it's probably got the biggest plot hole in film history. Overall, I liked it a bit better, but it's still only a B- in my books.

They finally sent me this! After being #1 on my que for 5 months. Now I just have to wait till next week to watch it.

Hmm

I came in expecting to love this. The biggest criticism from the "haters" is that it's boring. Personally I don't think dramas or films solely consisting of people talking are boring, if the characters or plot is intriguing, I'm there. The films that bore me are ones like The Kingdom where the plot and characters are bland and undeveloped. I knew boredom wouldn't be a problem for me, so I expected aces. I didn't get them.

I agree with Magnus on a lot of things. The highlight of the film is definitley young Kane. The dialogue is at its snappiest there, the character is intriguing, you're interested in the company. It's charasmatic and it works. The musical number in the office is really a fantasticly shot scene. But one of my biggest problems was that they don't spend nearly enough time with the young version. And not only with him, but the transformation from him to cold unloving Kane. It's an ambitious idea to take a spirited young man at a beginning of a film and strip him away throughout, but I don't know how it much succeeds in doing that. Young Kane is shown, and then it cuts to selfish cold one. There aren't enough scenes where the young man becomes the selfish old one. Where the switch happens and the business world takes away his spirit. We just get older Kane, and are forced to accept he's changed for the worse. Also, the film is maybe 85% cold Kane and 15% young one, and I hated how backloaded that was. The impact of a man selling away his soul was lost on me, because the boy with the soul was never there.

The middle section is definitley a drop-off. Instead of great flowing scenes like the introduction of the newspaper office and Leland's original envy, we get melodrama like the political race and Susan the opera singer and her terrible acting. Magnus hit it on the head, it's not as interesting, especially considering we know what happens. Scenes like the political ultimatum in Susan's apartment are just... not as well done. Compared to those early scenes like the reporter going into the archive room that were soooo tight, it's rather loose. I did really really like Leland and Joseph Cotton's portrayal of him though, I almost wish he had more screentime.

Finally I have to agree once more that the ending really picks up. The last 25 minutes are great, really. The isolation of Xanadu, Kane destroying his office and standing in that doorway, the revelation of Rosebud. In that moment he becomes a pretty tragic figure, losing everything and realizing his cold life and all.

The film is glorious technically. One of the best shot films ever. Little camera angles like Kane at the typewriter or Xanadu from afar, or just his use of shadows and long shots, brilliant work. And Orsen Welles' performance is an all-timer, he's right up there with the best. No surprise in either of those factors.

So in final, I think Citizen Kane is a very ambitious project. The idea of deconstructing this man is a great one, Kane is an interesting character if nothing else. It devulges a lot into and represents American code and rising tycoons and the like in the early 20th century, and does a very good job creating the portrait of that time. But is it as succesful or powerful a drama as it wants to be? I don't know. Something didn't quite ring with me. Despite the great technicals and actor, there wasn't much that pushed it past regular drama levels into the "amazing" category. Maybe that's exactly what the problem is.

B

I'm glad I finally got to this though. Been embarassed about never seeing it.

Oh and I was not a fan of Dorothy Comingmore. Just a bad surface performance. Kane being abandoned by her is supposed to hurt, but it doesn't because she's pretty much annoying as hell and you want her off the screen anyways. Though his reaction is still one of the best scenes of the film.

Btw



I missed that. Was it that they burned the sled with Rosebud written right on it? I thought that was from the past actually, right after he moved or whatever. Or that he just didn't take it with him.

Actually, the plot hole is that no one is actually in the room to hear his last words, "Rosebud". The nurse comes in after he says it, drops the snow globe, and dies. How do all the reporters know that his last words were "Rosebud"?

I thought the nurse heard it from the next room or something. Or maybe a spanish butler or whatever was in the room.

It could be that Raymond the Butler just wanted to continue on his boss' legacy by sending everyone on this wild goose chase on what or who Rosebud is, so that even after death, Kane is still being talked about. Yeah, the nurse was in the other room and Kane died alone.

There is an interesting theory floating around the the whole movie is Kane's final memory right before dying, something he wanted to see happen, ending with his remembrance of lost innocence.

From IMDb:



So.....

Hahaaa

Orson Welles, we are not amused...

I wouldn't say this is the best movie of all time by any means, but it's not bad. It seemed to lack something, although I can't quite put my finger on it. I guess Shack's description is the closest: it lacked something that pushes a movie above the average level.

B

"Chris, stay the hell out of that Citizen Kane thread. You're only going to get yourself in trouble. Remember: not everyone knows what they're talking about."

"Geeeez, alright, mom. Fuck."

rosebud....

I was at first, like WHAT the f&* does that mean, however i understood.

However after I learned about the huge plot hole in the film, I don't respect as much anymore.

Ah, yes.