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 Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb) 
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
Flava'd vs The World wrote:
Barrabás wrote:
Not including Superman in the marketing might have hurt it. Justice League is supposed to have Superman, it'd be like Avengers without Thor or Captain America.
But BvS was heavily criticized for including Wonder Woman and Doomsday in its marketing. WB was actually listening to the fans on this.


And that criticism was warranted. But Warner Bros. had to have seen that including Wonder Woman was part of the reason it made $166m opening weekend. They may have listened to people, but they listened about something that in the end doesn't really matter and doesn't affect people's decision to watch a film. However, removing Superman from all marketing of JL does matter, and thus it was the most idiotic decision ever. They hadn't created enough goodwill yet to attempt such a bold move and "a-ha!" moment among general audiences. Star Wars could do it. Imagine if in The Last Jedi, Yoda shows up. That would be a "whoa!" moment, and it would work. People would embrace it because the franchise is beloved. DCU is not yet, and never will be, because they keep making huge mistakes and making it very difficult for anyone to like the franchise, which can be seen in such a pathetic turnout for Justice League.


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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
This is definitely one of the biggest shocking debuts for a blockbuster, and obviously not in the positive manner.

$175/200 million was rightfully discussed when the project was announced.
$150 million+ was looking more likely this year and as the release date was approaching.
$125 million+ was appearing to be the best case scenario just a few weeks ago, and would have been "underwhelming" enough.
$100 million+ then ended up being the target post-reviews and pre-sales and would have been quite awful.

But possibly opening below $100 million now? There couldn't be a worse result. It's hard to fathom that the poor/mixed reception of the previous DCEU films has cost the franchise nearly half of its audience since Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice. Only the most die-hard DC fans apparently have interest.

Warner Bros. should have waited

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Last edited by Corpse on Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:21 am
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
Corpse wrote:
This is definitely one of the biggest shocking debuts for a blockbuster, and obviously not in the positive manner.

$175/200 million was discussed when the project was announced.
$150 million+ was looking more likely this year and as the release date was approaching.
$125 million+ was appearing to be the best case scenario just a few weeks ago, and would have been "underwhelming" enough.
$100 million+ then ended up being the target post-reviews and pre-sales and would have been quite awful.

But possibly opening below $100 million now? It's hard to fathom that the poor/mixed reception of the previous DCEU films has cost the franchise nearly half of its audience since Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice. Only the most die-hard DC fans apparently have interest judging by this result.


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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
If Warner Bros. really wanted to get their DCEU in theaters ASAP, perhaps they should have just started things off with a Justice League film and then focused on each character's solo films.

The right move, of course, would have been waiting another year or two to put together a better release strategy, produce higher-quality films, and to take advantage of the market post Marvel's Infinity War. Seems WB just got a bit too greedy.

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“You have to pretend you get an endgame. You have to carry on like you will; otherwise, you can't carry on at all.”
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Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:30 am
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
Trusting Snyder was the ultimate mistake. That simpler.

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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
Excel wrote:
Trusting Snyder was the ultimate mistake. That simpler.

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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
Saturday $90m+ LOCKED

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Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:41 am
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
Honestly Batman vs Superman is a more appealing concept than Justice League, at least with lack of build up for non Batman/Superman/WW characters. Batman vs Superman should've been a 200/500 film if it was directed by someone reasonable and the gross it ended up with was a fail in its own right.

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Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:44 pm
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
Everyone, before you continue blaming Snyder, a little backstory here.

This is not Snyder's film first off. It was Snyder's film in some past time long, long ago. It stopped being Snyder's film when WB started panicking and executives starting directly micromanaging DC movies beginning with Suicide Squad. WB also made some changes to Wonder Woman. JL was then the next casualty of WB panic and micromanaging. Wonder Woman commercially was an exception, because it was a novelty. The first superhero film to feature a lead female superhero (no, Catwoman doesn't count). So the novelty factor for Wonder Woman was huge. Also, Wonder Woman did just okay overseas. Tremendously well domestically, but just okay overseas. By the way, Zack Snyder came up with the story for the Wonder Woman film, so credit where credit is due.

Now back to JL. As Thegun correctly pointed out in the other Friday thread, all Snyder wanted to do was make MOS 2. Then WB panicked and stepped in and shoved Batman, JL elements, and Wonder Woman into MOS 2, transforming it into BvS or "JL Lite" as I like to call it. Then to top it off, WB mandated a very rushed theatrical edit with BvS, refusing to allow Snyder to make his director's cut the theatrical cut. Snyder's director's cut later came out on home video and was actually well received compared to the theatrical cut. Given all the WB executive interference, Snyder still made a pretty good film in BvS (director's cut).

Now we get to JL. WB executive interference was present from almost the beginning according to insider word. WB panicked and mandated a forced happy and more goofy tone, Marvel style, which is not what Snyder wanted. Also Snyder during production had actually compiled a 3-hour cut that he wanted to again be the theatrical cut. WB absolutely refused, but even worse than BvS, WB mandated that JL be a maximum of 2 hours long (again according to insider word). Then it gets worse. A terrible personal tragedy occurs in Snyder's family, so he then steps back entirely from production. Then they bring in Joss Whedon, and JL undergoes massive, massive reshoots and changes. Don't believe what WB publicly says. The reshoots in reality drastically changed the film. A new composer is brought in as well late into the process, and the reshoots go on quite long and quite close to release. The CGI and post-production ends up being rushed, as do many other things.

The result? JL is a messed up, desperate, made-by-committee film where Snyder was refused creative freedom. It was a film made by interference of various WB executives, and the shoved-in efforts of Joss Whedon. This is similar to Suicide Squad, which was made by committee. Suicide Squad did decently at the box office, yet it is a very forgettable film.

I agree with many of you. JL looks like and feels like a mess of a film. I won't watch it in theaters. However I would not blame Snyder for this. I would blame WB, Joss Whedon, and WB. The marketing obviously was also quite bad for JL.

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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
Let's also not forget that Snyder was only brought in because the general reaction to Superman Returns was " it's boring." Blaming it all on him is very unfair. This, much like The Hobbit series, is entirely on WBs desperation to keep pace with Disney.


Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:18 pm
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
Algren wrote:

And that criticism was warranted. But Warner Bros. had to have seen that including Wonder Woman was part of the reason it made $166m opening weekend. They may have listened to people, but they listened about something that in the end doesn't really matter and doesn't affect people's decision to watch a film. However, removing Superman from all marketing of JL does matter, and thus it was the most idiotic decision ever. They hadn't created enough goodwill yet to attempt such a bold move and "a-ha!" moment among general audiences. Star Wars could do it. Imagine if in The Last Jedi, Yoda shows up. That would be a "whoa!" moment, and it would work. People would embrace it because the franchise is beloved. DCU is not yet, and never will be, because they keep making huge mistakes and making it very difficult for anyone to like the franchise, which can be seen in such a pathetic turnout for Justice League.


When you desperately try to please everybody, you end up pleasing nobody.

I think a big part of the problem is Kevin Tsujihara. Ever since he became chairman and CEO at WB, things in many ways have taken a turn for the worse. He comes mostly from a background of working at WB's home entertainment unit. Ever since he became CEO, and he installed many of his cronies at positions at WB, there have been many company missteps. The DC film universe has become a big mess. There's word that Kevin Tsujihara brought a very strange internal structure to WB when he became CEO. Also there was word years ago that WB lost the talented Jeff Robinov at the same time as Kevin Tsujihara became CEO, because there was some conflict between the two that Kevin Tsujihara didn't want to fix. Many at competing studios currently view WB as unstable and irrational ever since Kevin Tsujihara became CEO.

Also some blame can go to Time Warner CEO Jeff Bewkes, who for some reason favored Kevin Tsujihara as WB CEO and helped foster the instability that currently exists at WB now.

Also since this management shakeup, WB lost its partnership with Legendary Pictures.

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Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:23 pm
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
Flava'd vs The World wrote:
Let's also not forget that Snyder was only brought in because the general reaction to Superman Returns was " it's boring." Blaming it all on him is very unfair. This, much like The Hobbit series, is entirely on WBs desperation to keep pace with Disney.


Yup. Plus MOS was pretty good by most accounts. Even Nolan supposedly liked the idea of MOS, and the direction that it was going to go in with the planned MOS 2. Then WB executives stepped in and messed everything up.

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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
I might've believed this whole apologizing Snyder thing if it wasn't for the fact that he is yet to release even a decent movie. On the other hand Whedon, WB and all other parties involved actually do have previous merits that work in their favor. So I'll continue to think Snyder is where all the rot came from.


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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
Thatguy wrote:
Everyone, before you continue blaming Snyder, a little backstory here.

This is not Snyder's film first off. It was Snyder's film in some past time long, long ago. It stopped being Snyder's film when WB started panicking and executives starting directly micromanaging DC movies beginning with Suicide Squad. WB also made some changes to Wonder Woman. JL was then the next casualty of WB panic and micromanaging. Wonder Woman commercially was an exception, because it was a novelty. The first superhero film to feature a lead female superhero (no, Catwoman doesn't count). So the novelty factor for Wonder Woman was huge. Also, Wonder Woman did just okay overseas. Tremendously well domestically, but just okay overseas. By the way, Zack Snyder came up with the story for the Wonder Woman film, so credit where credit is due.

Now back to JL. As Thegun correctly pointed out in the other Friday thread, all Snyder wanted to do was make MOS 2. Then WB panicked and stepped in and shoved Batman, JL elements, and Wonder Woman into MOS 2, transforming it into BvS or "JL Lite" as I like to call it. Then to top it off, WB mandated a very rushed theatrical edit with BvS, refusing to allow Snyder to make his director's cut the theatrical cut. Snyder's director's cut later came out on home video and was actually well received compared to the theatrical cut. Given all the WB executive interference, Snyder still made a pretty good film in BvS (director's cut).

Now we get to JL. WB executive interference was present from almost the beginning according to insider word. WB panicked and mandated a forced happy and more goofy tone, Marvel style, which is not what Snyder wanted. Also Snyder during production had actually compiled a 3-hour cut that he wanted to again be the theatrical cut. WB absolutely refused, but even worse than BvS, WB mandated that JL be a maximum of 2 hours long (again according to insider word). Then it gets worse. A terrible personal tragedy occurs in Snyder's family, so he then steps back entirely from production. Then they bring in Joss Whedon, and JL undergoes massive, massive reshoots and changes. Don't believe what WB publicly says. The reshoots in reality drastically changed the film. A new composer is brought in as well late into the process, and the reshoots go on quite long and quite close to release. The CGI and post-production ends up being rushed, as do many other things.

The result? JL is a messed up, desperate, made-by-committee film where Snyder was refused creative freedom. It was a film made by interference of various WB executives, and the shoved-in efforts of Joss Whedon. This is similar to Suicide Squad, which was made by committee. Suicide Squad did decently at the box office, yet it is a very forgettable film.

I agree with many of you. JL looks like and feels like a mess of a film. I won't watch it in theaters. However I would not blame Snyder for this. I would blame WB, Joss Whedon, and WB. The marketing obviously was also quite bad for JL.


Holy shit, Zack Snyder posts here! Please stop making movies though. Pretty pleeeease?

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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
_axiom wrote:
I might've believed this whole apologizing Snyder thing if it wasn't for the fact that he is yet to release even a decent movie. On the other hand Whedon, WB and all other parties involved actually do have previous merits that work in their favor. So I'll continue to think Snyder is where all the rot came from.


This--except I liked Dawn of the Dead.


Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:35 pm
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
I’m Team Blame Warner Bros. Every single film (Wonder Woman excepted, barely) has felt like a course correction instead of the kind of tonally confident film that makes the most sense for the property being adapted. Suicide Squad was legit one of the worst movies I’ve seen in theaters largely because it felt overproduced to death. Blaming directors as singularly responsoble for a flop is a classic way for studios to weaponize auteur theory to avoid taking any culpability for making shitty, rushed, and unfocused movies. Anyone think that Green Lantern was Martin Campbell’s fault? Maybe Snyder should have pushed back on the studio more but thatguy has it right that Warner Bros rushed this multiverse and has made films that feel undercooked and overstuffed.


Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:58 pm
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
It's totally WB's fault. They wanted a mandated under 2 hour film and turns out it didn't even help with box office.


Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:02 pm
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
_axiom wrote:
I might've believed this whole apologizing Snyder thing if it wasn't for the fact that he is yet to release even a decent movie. On the other hand Whedon, WB and all other parties involved actually do have previous merits that work in their favor. So I'll continue to think Snyder is where all the rot came from.


Regardless of your personal opinions of Snyder's films, Dawn of Dead was very much a profitable film. 300 was an extremely profitable film. Watchmen and Sucker Punch were both financial losses, and Man of Steel made a small profit all in all. Legend of the Guardians I think in the end was a breakeven film. Batman vs Superman also made a small profit. So looking at Snyder's filmography, the majority of his films have been profitable. Watchmen and Sucker Punch were the only two clear financial losses.

But hey, feel free to keep ignoring the elephant in the room, which is the disastrous executive changes that have occurred at WB over the last 4-5 years, including the ousting of some very talented veteran executives, and the fraying of some professional relationships like the falling out between WB and Legendary Pictures. WB executives directly interfered with David Ayer during production of Suicide Squad. The film ended up profitable, but it tremendously harmed WB's relationship with David Ayer. So are you going to blame Snyder for all of these things too?

Are you also going to blame Snyder for coming up with the story for Wonder Woman, and helping guide that films' production? Oh wait...Wonder Woman was a big financial success. So it's going to be hard to blame Snyder for that.

No, the true "rot" here is WB itself, and the incompetent executives now in charge.

Magnus wrote:
I think the success of Wonder Woman is pretty clear evidence that it's mostly Snyder fault. It's WB fault for hiring him and continuing to have him in charge.


Guess it's Snyder's fault for coming up with the story for the Wonder Woman film too :wacko:.

MovieDude wrote:
I’m Team Blame Warner Bros. Every single film (Wonder Woman excepted, barely) has felt like a course correction instead of the kind of tonally confident film that makes the most sense for the property being adapted. Suicide Squad was legit one of the worst movies I’ve seen in theaters largely because it felt overproduced to death. Blaming directors as singularly responsoble for a flop is a classic way for studios to weaponize auteur theory to avoid taking any culpability for making shitty, rushed, and unfocused movies. Anyone think that Green Lantern was Martin Campbell’s fault? Maybe Snyder should have pushed back on the studio more but thatguy has it right that Warner Bros rushed this multiverse and has made films that feel undercooked and overstuffed.


Bingo. The true irony is that WB previously was famous for giving directors tons of creative freedom, and giving auteurs a chance to truly shine without interfering in the filmmaking process. Virtually all other big name studios over the years did not nearly give the same creative freedoms.

Now since the big executive shuffle a few years ago at WB, the studio has become a mess. Having WB's CEO now directly interfere in the production process of films, among other things, goes against the time honored philosophy that WB previously had.

So now, these new breed of WB executives feel very much convinced that they need to directly interfere in the filmmaking process. This inevitably leads to disaster. The only exceptions are big name legends like Clint Eastwood and Chris Nolan, where WB executives wouldn't dare interfere in their films.

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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
Exec interference made Cary Fukunaga ditch It and I heard that was because they wanted to stuff it with more scares so I don’t know if it’s always a bad thing but the DCEU movies feel chopped to death. That’s why 8’m not making any immediate land to see Justice League even though I have MoviePass.


Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:33 pm
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
MovieDude wrote:
Exec interference made Cary Fukunaga ditch It and I heard that was because they wanted to stuff it with more scares so I don’t know if it’s always a bad thing but the DCEU movies feel chopped to death. That’s why 8’m not making any immediate land to see Justice League even though I have MoviePass.


Exceptions will happen but as a film buff, if you look at film history, direct studio interference almost always leads to problems.

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Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:38 pm
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
One of the biggest problems is that in a multiverse you need to keep a level of consistent quality that builds trust. This performance proves that Batman v Superman being shitty didn’t just hurt it’s legs but poisoned the entire well. Wonder Woman did as well as it did because reviews were exceptional, and as a one off can be seen by folks who did not suffer through BvS. As long as reviews continue to indicate turgid films people will keep staying away.


Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:50 pm
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
I agree that WB is at major fault here but its not like editing is the only problem with DCEU films.

I think the look and feel of a Synder film doesn't fit well with critics and most likely casual audience plus are you seriously telling me that the director's cut of BvS was going to get fresh critical response? Man of Steel has Nolan for writing credits and I don't think WB was interfering back then and it ended up being rotten and barely making profit.

And Snyder is/was not a small name, IF he REALLY wanted he could have prevented from studio interventions that's also part of being a director I guess/hope. There is a big fault of Snyder being left in control as well. You can come-up with an idea of a movie but WW didn't have Snyder in its credits, also it was also a movie with troubled production.


Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:53 pm
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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
ZS has a producer and a story credit on Wonder Woman.

I think that as a director he was a poor fit less because of his stylized visuals and more because he isn’t great at getting good lone readings from his actors. That’s why I initially thought Joss Whedon was actually a smart choice to bring on board.

That said studio interference happens all the time to big name directors who have a lot more sway.


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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
MovieDude wrote:
One of the biggest problems is that in a multiverse you need to keep a level of consistent quality that builds trust. This performance proves that Batman v Superman being shitty didn’t just hurt it’s legs but poisoned the entire well. Wonder Woman did as well as it did because reviews were exceptional, and as a one off can be seen by folks who did not suffer through BvS. As long as reviews continue to indicate turgid films people will keep staying away.


Too many cooks in the kitchen as the saying goes. WB does not have a single creative leader shepherding the entire DC film universe like Disney/Marvel has. Some say that Geoff Johns now has that responsibility along with one other executive at WB. Even if true, that means two people are responsible, not one, which again goes back to too many cooks in the kitchen. All of this is also moot given that Kevin Tsujihara has final say on a lot of things and likes to directly interfere.

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Post Re: Early Fridays (spoilers: it's a bomb)
Hahaha. That’s awesome but unsurprising. I was right(not crazy or trolling), for saying that they should have waited and rebooted. WW was worth making as a film itself, but that’s how these movies need to stand now.

When magnus said it would be one of the least hyped mega openings ever, all I could think was, “haven’t we heard that before, with matrix revolutions and others?”

If you want to see WW you can wait for the sequel. You don’t need this.


Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:40 pm
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