Register  |  Sign In
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:37 pm



Reply to topic  [ 169 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next
 Guns. 

The right to bear arms--including assault rifles and handguns--for personal protection.
For 15%  15%  [ 4 ]
Against 85%  85%  [ 22 ]
Total votes : 26

 Guns. 
Author Message
You must have big rats
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:28 pm
Posts: 92093
Location: Bonn, Germany
Post Re: Guns.
*shrug* I guess I am against in general. When anyone can own a gun, then owning one doesn't exactly make you particularly protected. The gun control in the US is a problem, but not the only reason for the gun violence. There are other issues at plays, a different mentality. I mean, one should check out gun ownership in Switzerland, hehe. Yet, there are no constant mass murder sprees there.

But, anyway, I would like to own a gun, however in a society, where there are not many guns, so having a gun myself would actually put me in a significantly better position. I'm a practical thinking person. ;)

_________________
The greatest thing on earth is to love and to be loved in return!

Image


Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:36 pm
Profile WWW
Hold the door!

Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:26 pm
Posts: 20302
Location: Where they shot Knock at the Cabin
Post Re: Guns.
I'm against guns.


Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:13 am
Profile
You must have big rats
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:28 pm
Posts: 92093
Location: Bonn, Germany
Post Re: Guns.
Gamaur wrote:
Dr. Lecter wrote:
The gun control in the US is a problem, but not the only reason for the gun violence. There are other issues at plays, a different mentality. I mean, one should check out gun ownership in Switzerland, hehe. Yet, there are no constant mass murder sprees there.


On Switzerland: of the 51 European nations, Switzerland ranks 6th in gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in spite of having an easily containable population of 8.2 million spread over a tiny region, having the 3rd highest Human Development Index in the world, and having a highly unified culture--comparatively speaking--to the United States. I'm unfamiliar exactly how Swiss and US gun laws stack up to one another, but assuming your point that Switzerland has lenient gun-control laws and a high possession rate, simple analysis shows there to be a positive correlation between higher gun ownership and gun-related deaths even when economic prosperity and non-violent culture are at play.

The US rate of gun-related deaths per 100,000 is roughly 4 times that of Switzerland; the difference easily explained by the vaster geographical region, highly fragmented culture, higher levels of poverty and subsequently harder population to evenly police. This indicates that a comparison between the two can't be drawn as a means to minimise the effectiveness of gun control, as everything else in Switzerland besides gun control is optimal for reducing gun-related deaths. The real point an analysis of Switzerland brings, is that with tighter gun laws it would have potentially the lowest rate of gun-related deaths in the world.


But you need to keep in mind that Switzerland ranks 4th worldwide for gun ownership. And, yes, of course when you have THIS many guns, the gun-related deaths will increase. That's no surprise. But people would find other ways to kill themselves.

What matters here is too look exactly where Switzerland's numbers come from. The homicide rate with guns is minimal as are intentional deaths. Most of the death rate comes from suicides.

_________________
The greatest thing on earth is to love and to be loved in return!

Image


Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:59 am
Profile WWW
KJ's Leading Pundit
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:45 pm
Posts: 63026
Location: Tonight... YOU!
Post Re: Guns.
I'm against all non-hunting guns. So I am against hand guns and assault rifles. I don't mind police carrying hand guns or active military carrying assault rifles. But regular citizens should not have access to either. Their only purpose is to kill a human.

_________________
trixster wrote:
shut the fuck up zwackerm, you're out of your fucking element

trixster wrote:
chippy is correct

Rev wrote:
Fuck Trump


Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:15 am
Profile
Sbil

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:38 pm
Posts: 48626
Location: Arlington, VA
Post Re: Guns.
I'm not against the right to bear arms under the right circumstances. What I am very, very, very against are the hideously ineffective gun control laws that give disturbed people access to firearms who should not have access.


Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:16 am
Profile
KJ's Leading Pundit
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:45 pm
Posts: 63026
Location: Tonight... YOU!
Post Re: Guns.
I'm against the right to bear arms.

It was designed to protect the citizens in the 1700's against other countries to fortify our "military". We don't have an issue with that anymore. And our army is heavily armed.

_________________
trixster wrote:
shut the fuck up zwackerm, you're out of your fucking element

trixster wrote:
chippy is correct

Rev wrote:
Fuck Trump


Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:17 am
Profile
---------
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:42 pm
Posts: 11808
Location: Kansas City, Kansas
Post Re: Guns.
Dr. Lecter wrote:
But you need to keep in mind that Switzerland ranks 4th worldwide for gun ownership. And, yes, of course when you have THIS many guns, the gun-related deaths will increase. That's no surprise. But people would find other ways to kill themselves.

What matters here is too look exactly where Switzerland's numbers come from. The homicide rate with guns is minimal as are intentional deaths. Most of the death rate comes from suicides.

From what I've read, that doesn't seem to always be true. Since suicide for many is an impulsive decision, the lack of an quick "easy" method can be enough to reduce suicides.

There's the classic coal gas oven example from the 1970's, where half of suicides were as a result of coal gas ovens in the Britain. After phasing those types of evens out, suicides dropped by a third.


Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:21 am
Profile
now we know
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:31 pm
Posts: 67000
Post Re: Guns.
This debate will still be going on in 200 years.

_________________

STOP UIGHUR GENOCIDE IN XINJIANG
FIGHT FOR TAIWAN INDEPENDENCE
FREE TIBET
LIBERATE HONG KONG
BOYCOTT MADE IN CHINA



Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:37 am
Profile WWW
You must have big rats
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:28 pm
Posts: 92093
Location: Bonn, Germany
Post Re: Guns.
But it brings you back to exactly the first point that I have made. The issues in the US go deeper than just gun control, it is the whole mentality and approach to guns as such.

_________________
The greatest thing on earth is to love and to be loved in return!

Image


Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:16 pm
Profile WWW
Killing With Kindness
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:57 pm
Posts: 25020
Location: Anchorage,Alaska
Post Re: Guns.
I like having my guns.

I do think gun regulation is lax in the U.S.

_________________
The Force Awakens

Image


Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:27 pm
Profile WWW
Defeats all expectations
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 5:04 pm
Posts: 6665
Post Re: Guns.
BJ wrote:
I like having my guns.

I do think gun regulation is lax in the U.S.


Did you mean the mere possession of guns or the idea of carrying them around?


Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:00 pm
Profile
Killing With Kindness
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:57 pm
Posts: 25020
Location: Anchorage,Alaska
Post Re: Guns.
i.hope wrote:
BJ wrote:
I like having my guns.

I do think gun regulation is lax in the U.S.


Did you mean the mere possession of guns or the idea of carrying them around?

Possession, I don't carry.

_________________
The Force Awakens

Image


Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:35 pm
Profile WWW
KJ's Leading Pundit
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:45 pm
Posts: 63026
Location: Tonight... YOU!
Post Re: Guns.
How often have you used them or even taken them out to attempt to use them?

(outside of going to a range, etc)

_________________
trixster wrote:
shut the fuck up zwackerm, you're out of your fucking element

trixster wrote:
chippy is correct

Rev wrote:
Fuck Trump


Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:51 pm
Profile
Extraordinary
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 11015
Location: Warren Theatre Oklahoma
Post Re: Guns.
Bunch of commies in this joint.

_________________
2009 World of KJ Fantasy Football World Champion
Team MVP : Peyton Manning : Record 11-5 : Points 2669.00
[b]FREE KORRGAN

45TH PRESIDENT OF THE U.S.A. DONALD J. TRUMP
#MAGA #KAG!
10,000 post achieved on - Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:49 pm


Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:09 pm
Profile
Extraordinary
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:30 pm
Posts: 12096
Location: Stroudsburg, PA
Post Re: Guns.
Too simple of a poll. It's not an all-or-nothing issue.

I think it’s a good idea that you must have a license to drive a car, which you cannot get until you can prove you can handle a vehicle safely. I prefer not allowing children to drive. People who have a record of unsafe driving should be prohibited from getting behind a wheel.

I like having all vehicles registered, and checked periodically to make sure there are no defects. I think it’s great that we are required to have insurance so that if anyone is hurt as a result of negligent use of the car, there is coverage for medical expenses and damage.

I even think it’s a good idea that certain large vehicles which are even more dangerous be highly regulated, with special licenses and requirements above and beyond the minor vehicles.

Does that make me anti-car?

_________________
Buy my books! http://michaelaventrella.com


Image


Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:49 pm
Profile WWW
Defeats all expectations
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 5:04 pm
Posts: 6665
Post Re: Guns.
Dr. Lecter wrote:
But it brings you back to exactly the first point that I have made. The issues in the US go deeper than just gun control, it is the whole mentality and approach to guns as such.


Speaking of mentality, I deplore the thinking that it is okay for law enforcement officers to shoot to kill a person merely for resisting arrest or running away posing no immediate harm or danger.

Sometimes this unnecessary escalation of force comes down to the de facto police assumption that a random person, to be arrested or not, may carry a gun. This assumption is based on the fact it is easy to get access to guns.

And I am surprised, not in a good way, some police officers would use batons, tasers, or chokehold to subdue a person for petty offenses like jaywalking, painting graffiti, or selling untaxed cigarettes. People's obsession with a high degree of preventive policing to create an absolutely clean and orderly environment can be a bit too much.


Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:25 pm
Profile
KJ's Leading Pundit
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:45 pm
Posts: 63026
Location: Tonight... YOU!
Post Re: Guns.
Groucho wrote:
Too simple of a poll. It's not an all-or-nothing issue.

I think it’s a good idea that you must have a license to drive a car, which you cannot get until you can prove you can handle a vehicle safely. I prefer not allowing children to drive. People who have a record of unsafe driving should be prohibited from getting behind a wheel.

I like having all vehicles registered, and checked periodically to make sure there are no defects. I think it’s great that we are required to have insurance so that if anyone is hurt as a result of negligent use of the car, there is coverage for medical expenses and damage.

I even think it’s a good idea that certain large vehicles which are even more dangerous be highly regulated, with special licenses and requirements above and beyond the minor vehicles.

Does that make me anti-car?


I honestly think it would be easier to get rid of all guns than to slap car-like regulations on them.

_________________
trixster wrote:
shut the fuck up zwackerm, you're out of your fucking element

trixster wrote:
chippy is correct

Rev wrote:
Fuck Trump


Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:46 pm
Profile
New Server, Same X
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:07 pm
Posts: 28277
Location: ... siiiigh...
Post Re: Guns.
I do lean towards Chippy's extreme view. The general public does not need to be armed. If we all can't have access, what's to fear? That's the eternal optimist in me.

But in that, guns will not be gone entirely. And they inevitably end up in dangerous hands, as they always will. Which means the general public may need protection after all.

So I don't know. But I know what's in place now is flawed.

_________________
Ecks Factor: Cancelled too soon


Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:00 pm
Profile
You must have big rats
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:28 pm
Posts: 92093
Location: Bonn, Germany
Post Re: Guns.
Gamaur wrote:
Dr. Lecter wrote:
But it brings you back to exactly the first point that I have made. The issues in the US go deeper than just gun control, it is the whole mentality and approach to guns as such.


No; the vagueness of that assertion was already answered. If you're a making positive claim the least you need to do is provide reasoning beyond the titular nature of your argument; otherwise it's as vacuous as throwing shit at a wall. There's no doubt the factors I listed make the issue more entrenched and difficult to eradicate in the US, but again you are sounding like Philip Van Cleave: you're either suggesting gun control won't have any meaningful change, or you're suggesting that's there's no point in increasing regulation unless 100% of the problem can be eradicated.

The notion that tighter gun control won't reduce gun violence in America is logically, obviously and patently untrue: as was cited in that video, in the 18 years leading up to the Port Arthur massacre, there were 13 mass shooting in Australia. When you scale for population--Australia has about 1/15th the number of people--the rate of massacres and gun-related deaths was at least as high as that of the US. Since the 1996 gun ban and regulatory upheaval the amount of gun violence has dropped by over 90% in Australia.

Would a similar gun ban in the US have the same eliminatory effect as it did in Australia? Of course not; as I listed, America is too vast and culturally-fragmented a nation for that to happen, but it's beyond obvious that it would drastically decrease gun-related deaths.

The real problem preventing meaningful change in the US is the political mentality against gun control; not the mentality around how weapons are actually used. That just makes a potentially necessary change difficult to implement; it in no way makes the implementation of change meaningless.


And yet you are just repeaing what I said. I never said that tighter gun control would not reduce gun violence. In fact, I said this:

Quote:
The gun control in the US is a problem, but not the only reason for the gun violence

_________________
The greatest thing on earth is to love and to be loved in return!

Image


Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:54 pm
Profile WWW
Defeats all expectations
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 5:04 pm
Posts: 6665
Post Re: Guns.
Gamaur wrote:
Moreover, does anyone really think they'd simply be able to shoot someone? For it to be a non-psychopathic act your life would need to be in imminent danger, meaning a violent perpetrator would need to pull a weapon of their own on you first. How the fuck does having a gun put you in a more protected position in that case? The perpetrator may not shoot you if you don't impose a threat on them, and they're infinitely more likely to pull a trigger first, not least of all because it was their threat that made a defender pull out their own weapon and therefore that they would have the element of leverage. Or do people with guns in the US constantly walk around holding them, fully loaded, without the safety on?

This is the stupidest fucking debate mankind has ever witnessed.


One reasoning behind this is that gun possession is a deterrence to crimes. The threat to use deadly force prevents the perpetrator from intruding in the first place.


Last edited by i.hope on Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:18 pm
Profile
You must have big rats
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:28 pm
Posts: 92093
Location: Bonn, Germany
Post Re: Guns.
It's all about how you read things. I mentioned Switzerland as a proof that it is not all about control and that the USA, in addition to stricter gun laws, needs to deal with a whole lot of other underlying issues. I never implied a statistical split because I have not done a scientific study on the matter and would not throw out random numbers. I did put an emphasis on the mentality because it is the part that is more difficult to change than simply changing gun restrictions and a more difficult problem to deal with. The rest, you just took the liberty to read the way it seemed fitting to you at the time ;)

_________________
The greatest thing on earth is to love and to be loved in return!

Image


Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:18 pm
Profile WWW
You must have big rats
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:28 pm
Posts: 92093
Location: Bonn, Germany
Post Re: Guns.
Gamaur wrote:
I did make a mistake in linking your focus to the suggestion that restricting guns further wouldn't decrease violence.


Again, I have never said that. It should have probably become clear by now, though, that I simply give abbreviated statement for the lack of interest in a deeper debate (on this or on most topics that require a deeper debate, really) as my time is currently better spent elsewhere. :-D

_________________
The greatest thing on earth is to love and to be loved in return!

Image


Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:55 pm
Profile WWW
now we know
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:31 pm
Posts: 67000
Post Re: Guns.
That's the sensible thing to do. Otherwise he will just go on for ever and ever with his bullshit.

_________________

STOP UIGHUR GENOCIDE IN XINJIANG
FIGHT FOR TAIWAN INDEPENDENCE
FREE TIBET
LIBERATE HONG KONG
BOYCOTT MADE IN CHINA



Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:00 pm
Profile WWW
now we know
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:31 pm
Posts: 67000
Post Re: Guns.
See what I mean. ;)

Ok, I'm gone.

_________________

STOP UIGHUR GENOCIDE IN XINJIANG
FIGHT FOR TAIWAN INDEPENDENCE
FREE TIBET
LIBERATE HONG KONG
BOYCOTT MADE IN CHINA



Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:23 pm
Profile WWW
A very honest-hearted fellow
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:02 pm
Posts: 4767
Post Re: Guns.
I own a custom .45 that has personal meaning and a cheap 12 guage for shooting targets.

People talk about making it more difficult for mentally ill people to purchase firearms. I can agree with that although it will be more difficult than is realized. People mostly are not known, although the Oregon man seems to have been, to be crazy until they act out in some way which can be too late.


Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:54 pm
Profile WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 169 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.